Welsh medium education

IMO not delivering value for money !!

Would you care to expand on your reasons for your opinion?

we could have a seance

This is all small talk

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

IMO not delivering value for money !!

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In what way?

I have a theory that having separate Welsh and English medium schools doesn't help the Welsh language. I'd like to see those schools combined.

Imagine a merger of an English and Welsh medium secondary school. All departments merge. Lessons are taught in both languages, depending on the choice of the child, so friends A and B are both going to their GCSE music class - A is in one room while B is next door being taught in Welsh. The environment would be truly bilingual. Those who learn in English are aware of Welsh being used and might feel there's more point to the Welsh language than some do currently. They get to go to school with their friends. Resources get pooled and strengthened by a merger. Welsh speaking staff in English medium schools are able to teach in Welsh. There would be some cost benefits as well. Some people might say that children learning through the medium of Welsh won't be in a Welsh-only environment, but the truth is that there is little Welsh spoken by kids in Welsh schools outside of the classroom, unless there are teachers about.

Personally I hated learning Welsh at school my parents never spoke it at home even though my mother was from the north….still can’t get my head around the national anthem.

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Originally Posted by Whisperer

Personally I hated learning Welsh at school my parents never spoke it at home even though my mother was from the north….still can’t get my head around the national anthem.

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Could both of your parents speak Welsh then? I know of a few couples where both speak Welsh but one is from the north and they struggle to understand each other in Welsh so just use English.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

In what way?

I have a theory that having separate Welsh and English medium schools doesn't help the Welsh language. I'd like to see those schools combined.

Imagine a merger of an English and Welsh medium secondary school. All departments merge. Lessons are taught in both languages, depending on the choice of the child, so friends A and B are both going to their GCSE music class - A is in one room while B is next door being taught in Welsh. The environment would be truly bilingual. Those who learn in English are aware of Welsh being used and might feel there's more point to the Welsh language than some do currently. They get to go to school with their friends. Resources get pooled and strengthened by a merger. Welsh speaking staff in English medium schools are able to teach in Welsh. There would be some cost benefits as well. Some people might say that children learning through the medium of Welsh won't be in a Welsh-only environment, but the truth is that there is little Welsh spoken by kids in Welsh schools outside of the classroom, unless there are teachers about.

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Wouldn’t work in my personal opinion

Everyone that goes to a Welsh medium school buys in at the very start.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Could both of your parents speak Welsh then? I know of a few couples where both speak Welsh but one is from the north and they struggle to understand each other in Welsh so just use English.

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I never heard my old man speak Welsh or any of my friends parents for that matter. I’m talking 60s - 70s

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

In what way?

I have a theory that having separate Welsh and English medium schools doesn't help the Welsh language. I'd like to see those schools combined.

Imagine a merger of an English and Welsh medium secondary school. All departments merge. Lessons are taught in both languages, depending on the choice of the child, so friends A and B are both going to their GCSE music class - A is in one room while B is next door being taught in Welsh. The environment would be truly bilingual. Those who learn in English are aware of Welsh being used and might feel there's more point to the Welsh language than some do currently. They get to go to school with their friends. Resources get pooled and strengthened by a merger. Welsh speaking staff in English medium schools are able to teach in Welsh. There would be some cost benefits as well. Some people might say that children learning through the medium of Welsh won't be in a Welsh-only environment, but the truth is that there is little Welsh spoken by kids in Welsh schools outside of the classroom, unless there are teachers about.

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Funny you should say this Eric, cardiff council want to expand a Welsh primary as it’s full and has no space to expand in its current site, they also of course receive more money per pupil if they are learning in Welsh. My kids go to an English primary school nearby, a large site with two buildings, lots of space and it’s possibly not full due to 3 other schools being within half a mile.
We heard a few months ago the plan was to either swap sites or possibly merge giving the Welsh lot the smaller building for key stage 1, thus mixing the schools. Thought that might be quite a good idea but the welshy parents wanted all or nothing. The Welsh school is mainly all white middle class and ours is probably only 40%, it’s one of the most cosmopolitan schools in cardiff and has kids recently arrived from all over including Iraq and the like. I know a few of the Welsh parents and they don’t think they are but their views are bordering on racist which is why they don’t want precious Jonny mixing with kids from such places.
Put the council in a bit of a flux now anyway, all or nothing hasn’t gone down well in our school. You would think with covid and kids well being they would have other focus anyway. We will see hey

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Originally Posted by goats

Funny you should say this Eric, cardiff council want to expand a Welsh primary as it’s full and has no space to expand in its current site, they also of course receive more money per pupil if they are learning in Welsh. My kids go to an English primary school nearby, a large site with two buildings, lots of space and it’s possibly not full due to 3 other schools being within half a mile.
We heard a few months ago the plan was to either swap sites or possibly merge giving the Welsh lot the smaller building for key stage 1, thus mixing the schools. Thought that might be quite a good idea but the welshy parents wanted all or nothing. The Welsh school is mainly all white middle class and ours is probably only 40%, it’s one of the most cosmopolitan schools in cardiff and has kids recently arrived from all over including Iraq and the like. I know a few of the Welsh parents and they don’t think they are but their views are bordering on racist which is why they don’t want precious Jonny mixing with kids from such places.
Put the council in a bit of a flux now anyway, all or nothing hasn’t gone down well in our school. You would think with covid and kids well being they would have other focus anyway. We will see hey

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Yeah even the twee English middle class are learning the Welsh language - it’s so in vogue.

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Originally Posted by goats

Funny you should say this Eric, cardiff council want to expand a Welsh primary as it’s full and has no space to expand in its current site, they also of course receive more money per pupil if they are learning in Welsh. My kids go to an English primary school nearby, a large site with two buildings, lots of space and it’s possibly not full due to 3 other schools being within half a mile.
We heard a few months ago the plan was to either swap sites or possibly merge giving the Welsh lot the smaller building for key stage 1, thus mixing the schools. Thought that might be quite a good idea but the welshy parents wanted all or nothing. The Welsh school is mainly all white middle class and ours is probably only 40%, it’s one of the most cosmopolitan schools in cardiff and has kids recently arrived from all over including Iraq and the like. I know a few of the Welsh parents and they don’t think they are but their views are bordering on racist which is why they don’t want precious Jonny mixing with kids from such places.
Put the council in a bit of a flux now anyway, all or nothing hasn’t gone down well in our school. You would think with covid and kids well being they would have other focus anyway. We will see hey

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All schools are funded in the same way, a bloc grant depending on the number of places available and a set amount per pupil. A full school actually gets less per pupil than one with unfilled places Other grants top this up, a one class entry Welsh medium school, for example, would get just under £5000 for Welsh language resources out of a total grant of £150000, a school with falling numbers gets a share of a pot of over £1,000,000, grants are also made to schools for asylum seekers, pupils with special needs and those living in deprivation, the school you describe would be better funded than it’s neighbouring welsh school. I appreciate that our children’s education is always going to be an emotive topic, more so when issues like class, ethnicity and language are in the mix, but let’s stick to the facts, I not sure using phrases like ‘the welshy parents’, ‘the welsh lot’ and ‘bordering on racist’ really helps a sensible discussion, let’s keep it civil.

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Originally Posted by Whisperer

Yeah even the twee English middle class are learning the Welsh language - it’s so in vogue.

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It's 'faux' Welsh. Probably the only language you'll hear around Riverside - sorry Pontcanna, most weekends. It's a major leg-up in getting a career in the Assembly, Local Council, or any of the 100's of quangos that have been created here in Wales over the past 20yrs.
The Missus's 1st language was Welsh, and she would prefer our grandson was at a main stream English speaking school

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Could both of your parents speak Welsh then? I know of a few couples where both speak Welsh but one is from the north and they struggle to understand each other in Welsh so just use English.

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The accent is very weird isn't it.

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Originally Posted by Toggs

All schools are funded in the same way, a bloc grant depending on the number of places available and a set amount per pupil. A full school actually gets less per pupil than one with unfilled places Other grants top this up, a one class entry Welsh medium school, for example, would get just under £5000 for Welsh language resources out of a total grant of £150000, a school with falling numbers gets a share of a pot of over £1,000,000, grants are also made to schools for asylum seekers, pupils with special needs and those living in deprivation, the school you describe would be better funded than it’s neighbouring welsh school. I appreciate that our children’s education is always going to be an emotive topic, more so when issues like class, ethnicity and language are in the mix, but let’s stick to the facts, I not sure using phrases like ‘the welshy parents’, ‘the welsh lot’ and ‘bordering on racist’ really helps a sensible discussion, let’s keep it civil.

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Sure but my next door neighbour whose kids go to the Welsh school told me a lot of the parents don’t want their kids mixing with “foreign” kids in educational settings as they believe it holds them back or whatever excuse they can come up with, some of which I cannot repeat. 95% of the parents don’t speak Welsh anyway, so their not welshies really. And a very good mate of mine told me the council get more funding for Welsh speaking places, he’s very high up in the education dept.

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Originally Posted by goats

Sure but my next door neighbour whose kids go to the Welsh school told me a lot of the parents don’t want their kids mixing with “foreign” kids in educational settings as they believe it holds them back or whatever excuse they can come up with, some of which I cannot repeat. 95% of the parents don’t speak Welsh anyway, so their not welshies really. And a very good mate of mine told me the council get more funding for Welsh speaking places, he’s very high up in the education dept.

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Most kids taught in a Welsh medium school end up at a major disadvantage when later attending an English medium uni. I have many lecturer friends who have highlighted this a major issue, more so in science based subjects. Why not learn a modern European language? Much more useful.

It's great to hear welsh spoken , I am certain the language is stronger than it has been for many many years . Welsh is not going to vanish .

I do worry when the Welsh govt puts targets such as 20 percent etc speaking Welsh as first language within 5 years or whatever

We surely have enough Welsh medium schools now ?

We know that the language was nearly wiped out 100 plus years ago .....thankfully that's not going to happen now

I am not interested in learning Welsh but it sounds great 👍

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Most kids taught in a Welsh medium school end up at a major disadvantage when later attending an English medium uni. I have many lecturer friends who have highlighted this a major issue, more so in science based subjects. Why not learn a modern European language? Much more useful.

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This is something I noticed as a teenager, after going to Welsh primary then English comp.

It is definitely an issue

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Originally Posted by tomcat

Most kids taught in a Welsh medium school end up at a major disadvantage when later attending an English medium uni. I have many lecturer friends who have highlighted this a major issue, more so in science based subjects. Why not learn a modern European language? Much more useful.

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I know, quite a few of my mates went to glantaff and struggled a bit at uni. It’s such an easy language Welsh anyway, my 8 year old has had a few Welsh speaking teachers so is pretty good already as they do learn a fair bit. He will easily be fluent by 16 so why the need to do everything in Welsh? Seems a bit OTT.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It's great to hear welsh spoken , I am certain the language is stronger than it has been for many many years . Welsh is not going to vanish .

I do worry when the Welsh govt puts targets such as 20 percent etc speaking Welsh as first language within 5 years or whatever

We surely have enough Welsh medium schools now ?

We know that the language was nearly wiped out 100 plus years ago .....thankfully that's not going to happen now

I am not interested in learning Welsh but it sounds great ��

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Yeah definitely embrace it, all kids can learn it, it’s pretty simple, no need to ram it down though

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Originally Posted by Toggs

All schools are funded in the same way, a bloc grant depending on the number of places available and a set amount per pupil. A full school actually gets less per pupil than one with unfilled places Other grants top this up, a one class entry Welsh medium school, for example, would get just under £5000 for Welsh language resources out of a total grant of £150000, a school with falling numbers gets a share of a pot of over £1,000,000, grants are also made to schools for asylum seekers, pupils with special needs and those living in deprivation, the school you describe would be better funded than it’s neighbouring welsh school. I appreciate that our children’s education is always going to be an emotive topic, more so when issues like class, ethnicity and language are in the mix, but let’s stick to the facts, I not sure using phrases like ‘the welshy parents’, ‘the welsh lot’ and ‘bordering on racist’ really helps a sensible discussion, let’s keep it civil.

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Do you know what might be the difference between per pupil funding in English schools compared to those in Wales ?

And if there is a difference would you care to make an observation about the reasons for any discrepancy?

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Originally Posted by light up the darkness

Do you know what might be the difference between per pupil funding in English schools compared to those in Wales ?

And if there is a difference would you care to make an observation about the reasons for any discrepancy?

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I have no idea if there is any difference between funding for schools in England and Wales, as far as I know the formula for individual schools is decided at local authority level, I would imagine that that is true in both countries, but the spread of the academy system and more direct funding from central government in England may result in some difference.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

IMO not delivering value for money !!

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I started learning Welsh some 50 years ago and have taught it in adult night classes just to state this up front.
I have a number of neighbours whose kids go to Welsh schools but when I speak to them in Welsh they always answer in English. I have never heard them speak Welsh amongst themselves or with friends. Another family have grown up kids who went to Welsh school but have now lost completely the language. I recently went to see a Welsh school playing rugby and only heard the main coach speaking Welsh, all the players conversed in English. This scenario reflects itself in most areas of South Wales that I visit regularly. This will continue whilst parents who speak only English send their kids to Welsh schools whilst making no effort to learn the language. As soon as the children leave the school environment the children only speak English. In view of the fact that Welsh medium education costs a fortune and has recently been allocated another £30million by Welsh govt. it begs the question under the present system whether it is money well spent.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

I started learning Welsh some 50 years ago and have taught it in adult night classes just to state this up front.
I have a number of neighbours whose kids go to Welsh schools but when I speak to them in Welsh they always answer in English. I have never heard them speak Welsh amongst themselves or with friends. Another family have grown up kids who went to Welsh school but have now lost completely the language. I recently went to see a Welsh school playing rugby and only heard the main coach speaking Welsh, all the players conversed in English. This scenario reflects itself in most areas of South Wales that I visit regularly. This will continue whilst parents who speak only English send their kids to Welsh schools whilst making no effort to learn the language. As soon as the children leave the school environment the children only speak English. In view of the fact that Welsh medium education costs a fortune and has recently been allocated another £30million by Welsh govt. it begs the question under the present system whether it is money well spent.

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Part of the problem is the kids see Welsh being the language of school and not a language of every day life. Nothing wrong with that per se, in Luxembourg for example one of the three languages spoken there (I forget which) is used I school but not elsewhere.

My three sons went to Welsh junior school and now are all in English medium. They speak Latin (if indeed it can be considered spoken), German and Spanish to varying degrees, but all at a level better than their Welsh.

My granddaughter left a Welsh school and has excelled in an English speaking school , my guess it's not for everyone, for me it's not about funding it's what comes from within , most schools in the UK provide a very good educational service, those who want more archive more.

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Originally Posted by Whisperer

Personally I hated learning Welsh at school my parents never spoke it at home even though my mother was from the north….still can’t get my head around the national anthem.

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You can't learn one song with ten lines?

My three kids went to Welsh language primary and secondary schools. My wife was from Welsh-speaking west Wales, and insisted on them going. They have all left school - one has a Masters, and the other two are in the final year of their degrees. So it is no barrier to further education. They use their language when they can, with both friends and family.
I can see the argument that people use English outside of school/home. Of course they do - it is the main language of the world, and not just the UK. But that is not an excuse to let the language disappear.

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Originally Posted by tforturton

My three kids went to Welsh language primary and secondary schools. My wife was from Welsh-speaking west Wales, and insisted on them going. They have all left school - one has a Masters, and the other two are in the final year of their degrees. So it is no barrier to further education. They use their language when they can, with both friends and family.
I can see the argument that people use English outside of school/home. Of course they do - it is the main language of the world, and not just the UK. But that is not an excuse to let the language disappear.

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Marvellous news for your children you must be proud 👏

I don't think anyone wants the language to disappear.

Different strikes for different folks , and diversity and free choice is paramount.

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Originally Posted by pomeroy

I started learning Welsh some 50 years ago and have taught it in adult night classes just to state this up front.
I have a number of neighbours whose kids go to Welsh schools but when I speak to them in Welsh they always answer in English. I have never heard them speak Welsh amongst themselves or with friends. Another family have grown up kids who went to Welsh school but have now lost completely the language. I recently went to see a Welsh school playing rugby and only heard the main coach speaking Welsh, all the players conversed in English. This scenario reflects itself in most areas of South Wales that I visit regularly. This will continue whilst parents who speak only English send their kids to Welsh schools whilst making no effort to learn the language. As soon as the children leave the school environment the children only speak English. In view of the fact that Welsh medium education costs a fortune and has recently been allocated another £30million by Welsh govt. it begs the question under the present system whether it is money well spent.

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It's not money well spent at all is the answer