Does it all stem from the Swansea game?

i know we scraped past Birmingham a few days later, but I keep on going back to that Swansea game which I was surprised to see affect me so much. Generally speaking, teams do not jump from winning four consecutive games to losing seven out of the nest eight and six on the trot. We went into that match as a team and support with confidence high and yet were thoroughly taken apart with nothing to offer from players or manager to make a difference to Swansea's clear superiority.

Yes, it was hardly as if we were doing well up to the end of November, but amid the poor performances, there were a few that suggested better times ahead and the big victories over Luton and Huddersfield backed up by impressive wins at top six sides Watford and Stoke suggested a corner had been turned, but, since the shocker against Swansea, what has there been to offer encouragement? A battling and slightly fortunate win over Birmingham, we had a go against Brentford but ended up beaten by a better team and we were unlucky in the cup game against a much changed Forest side. Apart from that, there's been nothing and confidence levels are shot - after the humiliation (and I don't think that is too strong a description) in the derby, the players, and probably the manager, know they aren't as good as they thought they were.

However you slice it and dice it the manager is ultimately responsible for results.
A plan to play 11 men behind the ball and battle for a 0 0 draw in that game, would have been seen as an acceptable result
Losing and losing in the way that we did, just shows the difference between the way a young forward thinking successful coach approached the game and the way in which Harris set us up to play.

We didn't just lose we were out played across the park, what was worrying was the lack of tactical nouse from the bench to recognise it and do something about it.

Ive said before if Harris hangs on and I don't think he can now, then the whole backroom staff need replacing.
He bought his old Millwall mates in with him and they haven't been up to the job.

Harris isn't a good Championship manager in my view and results back that up.

We lost Moore to a hamstring injury in thst game as well that didn't helped.
I think the manner in which we lost was demoralising and playing Norwich so soon after who also controlled the majority of the ball sucked the confidence out of us.

I have to say, I am fed up of reading opposition managers say, they are a good team, its a hard place to come and win...... NO!!!

We have now lost 7 home games including the last 4!!
We need to win some games fast else we are going to be in big trouble

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

i know we scraped past Birmingham a few days later, but I keep on going back to that Swansea game which I was surprised to see affect me so much. Generally speaking, teams do not jump from winning four consecutive games to losing seven out of the nest eight and six on the trot. We went into that match as a team and support with confidence high and yet were thoroughly taken apart with nothing to offer from players or manager to make a difference to Swansea's clear superiority.

Yes, it was hardly as if we were doing well up to the end of November, but amid the poor performances, there were a few that suggested better times ahead and the big victories over Luton and Huddersfield backed up by impressive wins at top six sides Watford and Stoke suggested a corner had been turned, but, since the shocker against Swansea, what has there been to offer encouragement? A battling and slightly fortunate win over Birmingham, we had a go against Brentford but ended up beaten by a better team and we were unlucky in the cup game against a much changed Forest side. Apart from that, there's been nothing and confidence levels are shot - after the humiliation (and I don't think that is too strong a description) in the derby, the players, and probably the manager, know they aren't as good as they thought they were.

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Bob, we have been playing terrible, one paced, directionless football for months now but people have chosen to ignore this due to the odd win (usually Tomlin-inspired last season).

The malaise doesn’t hinge on one specific result. It has been ongoing for months - anyone who watches the team and how it plays can see beyond the results.

The idea that this is some sort of recent crisis triggered by a specific episode or event, is well wide of the mark. We have been sleep walking to this point for months.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Dandruff

Bob, we have been playing terrible, one paced, directionless football for months now but people have chosen to ignore this due to the odd win (usually Tomlin-inspired last season).

The malaise doesn’t hinge on one specific result. It has been ongoing for months - anyone who watches the team and how it plays can see beyond the results.

The idea that this is some sort of recent crisis triggered by a specific episode or event, is well wide of the mark. We have been sleep walking to this point for months.

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We’ve been playing terribly since November 2017! Nothing’s changed. We found ways to win in 17/18 and we’ve been absolutely awful bar the odd game since then. Things have come to a head now, I can’t be bothered. I thought we’d turn a corner, and we did, except we decided to turn back and we’ve got even worse. Harris says he wants time, he’s had a year and we are still crap. He did a cracking job last year turning this team around but he’s shown no desire to improve the midfield and our performances have been appalling for too long. Have we played well more than 3 times this season? It’s getting to the stage where anyone, andI mean anyone, could get more out of the players than Harris. I have absolutely no faith in the board to get this right and that was half of the reason I wanted to stick with Harris but he is no longer a safe pair of hands.

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Originally Posted by Bobby Dandruff

Bob, we have been playing terrible, one paced, directionless football for months now but people have chosen to ignore this due to the odd win (usually Tomlin-inspired last season).

The malaise doesn’t hinge on one specific result. It has been ongoing for months - anyone who watches the team and how it plays can see beyond the results.

The idea that this is some sort of recent crisis triggered by a specific episode or event, is well wide of the mark. We have been sleep walking to this point for months.

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I hope I’ve made it clear over a period of years what I think of the type of football we play, but I’m a City fan first and foremost and I’ve said that as long as we kept on winning enough games, I could put up with all of the functional football and, for much of the time, the wins kept on coming.
Although we were rarely enjoyable to watch, we had a resolution, determination and attitude which enabled us to grind out wins - most of our victories came through “winning ugly”, but since the Swansea game, our belief levels have been on the floor, we look weaker physically than our opponents and, from being the sort of team which won games like last night’s 1-0, we’ve become a soft touch that loses them 1-0 now by conceding ridiculous goals.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I hope I’ve made it clear over a period of years what I think of the type of football we play, but I’m a City fan first and foremost and I’ve said that as long as we kept on winning enough games, I could put up with all of the functional football and, for much of the time, the wins kept on coming.
Although we were rarely enjoyable to watch, we had a resolution, determination and attitude which enabled us to grind out wins - most of our victories came through “winning ugly”, but since the Swansea game, our belief levels have been on the floor, we look weaker physically than our opponents and, from being the sort of team which won games like last night’s 1-0, we’ve become a soft touch that loses them 1-0 now by conceding ridiculous goals.

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Yes you have always been critical of the football we have played for some years.

Malky and Warnock teams were ugly, but successful. I didn't like the football much but as a fan enjoyed the success. I think we all knew however that success would only be short term given that our style of play isn't amenable to long term football success and to compete at the top level.

I have maintained for years we need a director of football to harmonise coaching, playing style and recruitment across all ages groups at the club.

In terms of your point about the Swansea game, I think that it was a game where the fans, players and coaches probably recognised what a disaster of a team we are on the pitch and that our current approach can never deliver sustainable success. Sadly, out of that group, only the fans can truly admit it and be honest. Players, coaches and the manager must indulge in a public relations exercise that we are getting better and can bounce back. Fans know this is nonsense and even a few wins can't paper over the glaring cracks of our footballing approach that has been poor for years.

Watching the Swansea game I was firstly annoyed we didn't go for Lowe when we brought in Moore from Wigan. The jacks got him for peanuts really. However, as I thought about it more, I realised that even if we had brought him in, he couldn't thrive with us and his talent would be wasted here, as happened to so many attacking players over the last few years.

We need to be very truthful and admit we are not a good team and have over relied on one or two individuals for years. Things need to change, and soon.

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Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird

Yes you have always been critical of the football we have played for some years.

Malky and Warnock teams were ugly, but successful. I didn't like the football much but as a fan enjoyed the success. I think we all knew however that success would only be short term given that our style of play isn't amenable to long term football success and to compete at the top level.

I have maintained for years we need a director of football to harmonise coaching, playing style and recruitment across all ages groups at the club.

In terms of your point about the Swansea game, I think that it was a game where the fans, players and coaches probably recognised what a disaster of a team we are on the pitch and that our current approach can never deliver sustainable success. Sadly, out of that group, only the fans can truly admit it and be honest. Players, coaches and the manager must indulge in a public relations exercise that we are getting better and can bounce back. Fans know this is nonsense and even a few wins can't paper over the glaring cracks of our footballing approach that has been poor for years.

Watching the Swansea game I was firstly annoyed we didn't go for Lowe when we brought in Moore from Wigan. The jacks got him for peanuts really. However, as I thought about it more, I realised that even if we had brought him in, he couldn't thrive with us and his talent would be wasted here, as happened to so many attacking players over the last few years.

We need to be very truthful and admit we are not a good team and have over relied on one or two individuals for years. Things need to change, and soon.

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I agree with virtually everything you say and your point about Lowe is a good one.

We've approached football as if we were a team like, say, Rotherham for getting on for a decade now. It's strange, for many our first promotion was inevitable given the money we spent to achieve it, yet when we went up five years later, having blown £6 million in January on a striker who never scored a goal for us, it was considered a miracle - why the change in tone?

Expectations have been lowered by us finally achieving the long term goal of promotion to the Premier League it seems. I'm not saying that we should be spending fortunes in chasing another promotion, but it would be nice to see a recognition that we're a bit more than Neil Warnock's "plucky little Cardiff".

I would say that from around the time Russell Slade became manager we have approached games, no matter who we were playing, like a side going into a cup tie against a team a division above us - that's why I often say we play "underdog" football.

I just think that the Swansea game was the day when the penny dropped with some that we've gone backwards with the philosophy which has hung over the club since our first relegation and there was a realisation just how far we've fallen behind.

I think we've playning 'underdog' football because in footballing terms that's exactly what we have been. Even more so lately. Football at this level looks just so difficult for at least half the side..

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

I think we've playning 'underdog' football because in footballing terms that's exactly what we have been. Even more so lately. Football at this level looks just so difficult for at least half the side..

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Point taken, but I'd say that, unbelievably, we opted for underdog football when we had the financial means to go for so much more.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Point taken, but I'd say that, unbelievably, we opted for underdog football when we had the financial means to go for so much more.

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It's so depressing isn't it.

I can honestly say this is probably the least I have enjoyed watching us, even worse than Trollope and Slade teams. Trollope tried to replicate Welsh success at city in terms of Welsh players and approach. It failed, but at least he had a plan. Slade had a clear mandate to keep us up and at the same time cut down the squad and get rid of big earners. I hated the football but I think we all knew what the score was and that Slade was only a temporary hatchet man.

But this.. this is just awful. No plan and no progress and yet arguably a more talented squad.

And yet most fans would accept a couple of seasons of proper rebuilding including a change of footballing philosophy and approach.

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Originally Posted by Pedro de la Rosa

We’ve been playing terribly since November 2017! Nothing’s changed. We found ways to win in 17/18 and we’ve been absolutely awful bar the odd game since then. Things have come to a head now, I can’t be bothered. I thought we’d turn a corner, and we did, except we decided to turn back and we’ve got even worse. Harris says he wants time, he’s had a year and we are still crap. He did a cracking job last year turning this team around but he’s shown no desire to improve the midfield and our performances have been appalling for too long. Have we played well more than 3 times this season? It’s getting to the stage where anyone, andI mean anyone, could get more out of the players than Harris. I have absolutely no faith in the board to get this right and that was half of the reason I wanted to stick with Harris but he is no longer a safe pair of hands.

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Why didn't we play 4-4-2 with Kieffer Moore back starting last night? It's the only formation that has given us a bit of success this season, yet we tried a new system with two players who have barely trained with the squad. The substitutions were horrific as well. Each one made things worse. We had five attacking players on the pitch at the end of the game, but Curtis Nelson was attempting to cross the ball into the box from the right wing. It was an absolute mess.

I know that most of our players aren't very good, but it's got to the point where Neil Harris is actively making them worse.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Point taken, but I'd say that, unbelievably, we opted for underdog football when we had the financial means to go for so much more.

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I agree Bob, the attitude when we got promoted under Warnock was.. "let's build a squad that might stay up but will be well placed to get promoted again" then at the end of that season lost all first choice midfield who played in Premier and had one fit recognised right back
In the first team squad.

Bob, you make an interesting point.

While it's difficult to prove either way, I can think of a few examples where derby defeats have affected things.

2010/11: Cardiff City 0-1 Swansea City. We were unbeaten in 7, winning 5 on the trot before this. We were top of the league. Emnes winner was fully deserved as they played us off the park. We'd win 2 of our next 9 and end up in 5th.

2013/14: Swansea City 3-0 Cardiff City. Solskjaer had won 3 and lost 3 of his opening 6 fixtures, earning some plaudits for plucky away performances at Man City and Man Utd en route. Swansea were having a dismal time of it and sacked manager Laudrup, appointing Garry Monk in time for the derby. We were battered in the second half and would win only 2 more games that season on the way back to the Championship.

2002/03: Cardiff City 0-2 Bristol City. Having been torn apart by Scott Murray 12 months before, we were second, just above Bristol City in the table, having led the division for most of the season. We'd win only 3 of our next 7, the great early season performances never returned and we eventually spluttererd into the playoffs, where we'd win promotion. Our previous league game was a 4-0 win at QPR, but things never seemed the same after that defeat to the Wurzels.

I've looked at all the fixtures against Swansea and Bristol City and there's no real correlation between a defeat causing a greater run of bad form, or a win causing a good run. We've lost derby games and gone on a good run afterwards, as if that was the kick up the arse we needed. We've won derby games and gone on a bit of a poor run. After the 3-1 Murray match, we would go on to beat Leeds in the FA cup next!

I think the three examples I gave above demonstrate another thing, though. In those games, we were given a lesson by our derby day rivals and it showed others how you could be successful against us.

Neither Watford or Stoke played very well and I think we can all agree now that our little unbeaten run flattered to deceive. After half a season, Swansea are in the top 2 and their current form is WWDWW. Looking back we were kidding ourselves that we could get anything from that game. We should have put up more of a fight though.

Swansea have spent more than a decade playing good football and have maintained a continuity in style through several managers. We just haven't had that. They're in decent shape. We are mess. And it showed.