Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Boris will see it through with Nigel's help at the next GE , if only he would take that peerage allegedly secretly offered
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
If he did that he would be on the naughty step of a Scottish court before he could say 'Phwoarrrrr Humbug!'
If I was Boris Id write 3 letters and stare the EU Commission in the eye ,ring one of my old like minded mates , for a veto on an extension and watch parliament react , my worry every time the opposition kicks this back with amendment after amendment Boris gains traction with voters .
I really think Labours best chance is to accept it ,and fight on the real political battles at home where they are stronger ,tactically they got this badly wrong in my view , to be fair being torn apart internally doesn't help their cause old Keir as leader or Jess Phillips would have a field day
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
If he did that he would be on the naughty step of a Scottish court before he could say 'Phwoarrrrr Humbug!'
Well that would depend upon the wording of the Order.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
If I was Boris Id write 3 letters and stare the EU Commission in the eye ,ring one of my old like minded mates , for a veto on an extension and watch parliament react , my worry every time the opposition kicks this back with amendment after amendment Boris gains traction with voters .
I really think Labours best chance is to accept it ,and fight on the real political battles at home where they are stronger ,tactically they got this badly wrong in my view , to be fair being torn apart internally doesn't help their cause old Keir as leader or Jess Phillips would have a field day
Unless labour think they will win the inevitable general election then voting for the deal just hands the Tories an likely no deal brexit in 14 months. Either labour are against no deal or not. If they are they can't vote for this deal.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
If I was Boris Id write 3 letters and stare the EU Commission in the eye ,ring one of my old like minded mates , for a veto on an extension and watch parliament react , my worry every time the opposition kicks this back with amendment after amendment Boris gains traction with voters .
I really think Labours best chance is to accept it ,and fight on the real political battles at home where they are stronger ,tactically they got this badly wrong in my view , to be fair being torn apart internally doesn't help their cause old Keir as leader or Jess Phillips would have a field day
You're quite right. Jeremy Corbyn and this all party group who are misusing Parliamentry process and the law are having their 15 minutes of fame , but the cost will be an electoral wipe out. People here are going nuts about it and life long labour voters are saying they'll never vote labour again.
They're having a very short term success in frustrating democracy but they cannot prevent an election forever, and the price will be the end of labour as a big party .
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Mind you, when they lose the next election it'll just be the start of a long period of argument over the result with claims that those who didn't vote for them were misinformed, stupid or wicked so it should be reversed.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
You're quite right. Jeremy Corbyn and this all party group who are misusing Parliamentry process and the law are having their 15 minutes of fame , but the cost will be an electoral wipe out. People here are going nuts about it and life long labour voters are saying they'll never vote labour again.
They're having a very short term success in frustrating democracy but they cannot prevent an election forever, and the price will be the end of labour as a big party .
Misusing parliamentary process and the law how?
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Well it's too late in the day to gain much from talking about the whole situation really Eric. Lines have been drawn at this point I'd say.
However , all these safeguards are in place to safeguard democracy rather than frustrate it and that's what they've done.
Now I know that you may well take a different view, which is okay, but I'm afraid that the bottom line is whether we do or don't respect the outcome of a democratic vote because that's necessary to protect the freedom to disagree whilst still acting together as a nation.
Unfortunately it doesn't matter who wins a vote anymore, because individuals within parliament are prepared to use the powers they've been given to defend the will of the people to try and force the people to obey them.
The two sides have made their minds up now and the one thing we know is that we can't change anything through the ballot box, so that's a situation which historically ends badly .
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Parliament itself is the loser in all of this, led by the speaker of the house.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RonnieBird
Well it's too late in the day to gain much from talking about the whole situation really Eric. Lines have been drawn at this point I'd say.
However , all these safeguards are in place to safeguard democracy rather than frustrate it and that's what they've done.
Now I know that you may well take a different view, which is okay, but I'm afraid that the bottom line is whether we do or don't respect the outcome of a democratic vote because that's necessary to protect the freedom to disagree whilst still acting together as a nation.
Unfortunately it doesn't matter who wins a vote anymore, because individuals within parliament are prepared to use the powers they've been given to defend the will of the people to try and force the people to obey them.
The two sides have made their minds up now and the one thing we know is that we can't change anything through the ballot box, so that's a situation which historically ends badly .
Okay. I'll tick that off as unsubstantiated.
If you think there are two sides then you aren't paying attention.
I agree that democracy needs to be respected. The ref was a poorly thought out oversimplification and now leaves us in a position where two withdrawal agreements and 'no deal' are all being described as 'the will of the people' despite being manifestly different.
I think the battle ground will move towards what happens after the withdrawal agreement is passed soon. What actually matters is our future relationship with Europe and nothing in the declaration is binding or guaranteed.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Okay. I'll tick that off as unsubstantiated.
If you think there are two sides then you aren't paying attention.
I agree that democracy needs to be respected. The ref was a poorly thought out oversimplification and now leaves us in a position where two withdrawal agreements and 'no deal' are all being described as 'the will of the people' despite being manifestly different.
I think the battle ground will move towards what happens after the withdrawal agreement is passed soon. What actually matters is our future relationship with Europe and nothing in the declaration is binding or guaranteed.
Cameron was very clear that it was an in or out referendum, not a half-in or half-out subvert the will of the people clownshow.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
Cameron was very clear that it was an in or out referendum, not a half-in or half-out subvert the will of the people clownshow.
In or out of membership of the EU certainly - but the whole referendum campaign was full of (from the Leave side), Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Canada plus, easiest new trade deal in the history of trade deals, and a thousand other variations on the terms of leaving and the future relationship with the EU.
It is only since the outcome of the referendum that politicians and press have read back into the result confident claims about what was in the minds of the electorate when they placed their cross, anointed 'no deal' as the purest form of Brexit, denounced most of the models that they were previously advocating as 'half in and half out' and pronounced that the will of the people (or 51.89% of them) is being subverted by Parliament defending its sovereignty, and holding an executive with a crap deal to account!
The clownshow is in the editorial offices of the press (on both sides of the argument), in the inner sanctum of the ERG Spartan club with their pathetic conversion to May Deal 2, in No 10, and amongst the usual frothing little-Englanders. The positions many people now hold have hardened massively in over 3 years and bear little relationship to what was said, believed and was possible in the immediate aftermath of the vote. The main culprit for that was Theresa May with her cloth ears, refusal to seek consensus, rigid red lines and determination to put party unity above national interest (however that is defined).
1 Attachment(s)
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
Cameron was very clear that it was an in or out referendum, not a half-in or half-out subvert the will of the people clownshow.
Attachment 3295
You were in the enlightened few as usual WB. The graph above indicates that most leavers didn't believe or listen to Cameron and instead expected the 'have your cake and eat it' promises from the leave campaign to come to fruition.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Misusing parliamentary process and the law how?
I would say they have cleverly used parliamentary process for thier own ends . Some may consider that as a betrayal of a democratic vote and decesion taken by the electorate , they are very strong of mind when delivering and supporting votes within in their own party mechanisms and at a local level , and supportbtge right to vote of those taking industrial action .
For me a vote is a vote however one may dislike its outcome .
I think the electorate will be very unforgiving on this matter.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
In or out of membership of the EU certainly - but the whole referendum campaign was full of (from the Leave side), Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Canada plus, easiest new trade deal in the history of trade deals, and a thousand other variations on the terms of leaving and the future relationship with the EU.
It is only since the outcome of the referendum that politicians and press have read back into the result confident claims about what was in the minds of the electorate when they placed their cross, anointed 'no deal' as the purest form of Brexit, denounced most of the models that they were previously advocating as 'half in and half out' and pronounced that the will of the people (or 51.89% of them) is being subverted by Parliament defending its sovereignty, and holding an executive with a crap deal to account!
The clownshow is in the editorial offices of the press (on both sides of the argument), in the inner sanctum of the ERG Spartan club with their pathetic conversion to May Deal 2, in No 10, and amongst the usual frothing little-Englanders. The positions many people now hold have hardened massively in over 3 years and bear little relationship to what was said, believed and was possible in the immediate aftermath of the vote. The main culprit for that was Theresa May with her cloth ears, refusal to seek consensus, rigid red lines and determination to put party unity above national interest (however that is defined).
Unfortunately it is working. Looks somewhat likely that parliament will vote through, what amounts to a promise of hard brexit, in the next few weeks. The ref result suggested some kind of compromise would be found to respect the 48%. Unfortunately for MPs who are seen as pushing this through, the 48% are on average more likely to vote and younger.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
In or out of membership of the EU certainly - but the whole referendum campaign was full of (from the Leave side), Norway, Switzerland, Canada, Canada plus, easiest new trade deal in the history of trade deals, and a thousand other variations on the terms of leaving and the future relationship with the EU.
It is only since the outcome of the referendum that politicians and press have read back into the result confident claims about what was in the minds of the electorate when they placed their cross, anointed 'no deal' as the purest form of Brexit, denounced most of the models that they were previously advocating as 'half in and half out' and pronounced that the will of the people (or 51.89% of them) is being subverted by Parliament defending its sovereignty, and holding an executive with a crap deal to account!
The clownshow is in the editorial offices of the press (on both sides of the argument), in the inner sanctum of the ERG Spartan club with their pathetic conversion to May Deal 2, in No 10, and amongst the usual frothing little-Englanders. The positions many people now hold have hardened massively in over 3 years and bear little relationship to what was said, believed and was possible in the immediate aftermath of the vote. The main culprit for that was Theresa May with her cloth ears, refusal to seek consensus, rigid red lines and determination to put party unity above national interest (however that is defined).
Your right and you can see the same red lines posted by Labour to ensure the result is forever frustrated and never delivered.
With regards to party unity one may argue only two parties have that , SNP and Liberals.
Labour's unity is as bad or as worse than the Tories .
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wales-Bales
Cameron was very clear that it was an in or out referendum, not a half-in or half-out subvert the will of the people clownshow.
And in the last three and a bit years the country has learned that what that man.says is often rubbish, for example reducing the thing that has managed to drag Britain down to its knees to a yes or no matter.
Re: 'Nigel Farage mocked for Brexit U-turn after saying he would rather accept delay than new deal'
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
And in the last three and a bit years the country has learned that what that man.says is often rubbish, for example reducing the thing that has managed to drag Britain down to its knees to a yes or no matter.
On the basis that so.many people wanted to vote is that such a bad thing ?
It definitely fired up those who had never wanted to vote, and it allowed folk to have a view and break away from the usual party loyalty .
