The Labour Party Is Finished And Must Merge With Others To Challenge Tories

Not just UK wide but also here in Wales

The loss of so many seats in Scotland, Brexit and the dreadful leadership of Corbyn and his gang means now , more than ever , the only alternative to the tory machine of rampant capitalism is for Labour , The Liberals and smaller parties to knock it on the head and form a left of centre opposition so those of us , the majority of voters , who can't stand the tories can have someone to vote for .

Starmer is another poor leader and drakeford , whilst getting many things right is not again a leader . Carwyn Jones had charisma , drakeford has none .

Latest polls suggest Labour has only a 3 percent lead over the conservatives in Wales, thats staggering . I believe it is as much a reflection of the poor leadership of drakeford as it is everyone suddenly thinks the tories are the answer .

Andrew RT Davies as basically the leader of Wales will soon show everybody what the tories are about . Fine if you have money , cobblers to you if you don't.

But its more a case as I say of Labour being so inept that these chancers might get in .

In the long term someone with some bollocks should try and form an opposition to the tory rabble taking the best people from the Labour, Liberal and smaller parties . And if they get in , push through proportional representation .

Its the only way that people who don't vote tory are now going to have a chance of government .

The Labour and Liberal Party are done , we won't see another Labour government in my lifetime in my opinion .

Its a busted flush .

Some of your analysis is correct, but merging the left of centre parties to fight the Tories, no.
It's too late for the Assembly elections which are likely to see Tory gains, but there is a good case for a pact between the main parties at the next general election to beat these awful Tories.
I expect the next Assembly to be a supply and demand coalition between Labour and Plaid, with Mark Drakeford, if reelected being a temporary First minister.

Time for Plaid to have an opportunity, they have a strong leader, good policies and will ultimately put Wales first and fight it’s corner, that’s what people need after covid.

The Tories are criminally awful even against their already low standards and there are a lot of disgruntled labour voters who should be voting plaid as there’s no way they’ll go into a coalition with the tories. A Plaid - Labour coalition would be good for unhappy labour voters as they’ll provide resistance to anyone wary or undecided about independence.

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Originally Posted by Wozza16

Time for Plaid to have an opportunity, they have a strong leader, good policies and will ultimately put Wales first and fight it’s corner, that’s what people need after covid.

The Tories are criminally awful even against their already low standards and there are a lot of disgruntled labour voters who should be voting plaid as there’s no way they’ll go into a coalition with the tories. A Plaid - Labour coalition would be good for unhappy labour voters as they’ll provide resistance to anyone wary or undecided about independence.

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A Plaid-labour coalition may well work with Adam Price as the First Minister. But I doubt that Drakeford would accept that.

The really attractive promise from the Tories is to get the M4 relief road built. That'll catch a lot of votes.

I think a lot of what has been said by both Sludge and former labour leader is correct. However I would also suggest that the way some councils, and WAG itself, run things is poor.

If you look at Caerphilly council as an example, they have been shocking.

Closing leisure centres against the wishes of the people.
Going to court to fight against the wishes of the people.
Building new homes everywhere.
Former leader breaching code of conduct by not declaring interest in major investments.
The former CEO pay scandal.

Then there is the Islwyn candidate travelling to Swindon to see her boyfriend during lockdown, whilst possibly not breaking the law, it certainly breaks the spirit of the lockdown rules and undermines the WAG message.

Oh and a couple of years ago was found guilty of Drink Driving.

None of this helps labours cause and was some of the major talking points on the doorsteps during 2019 election campaign

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Originally Posted by Former Labour leader

Some of your analysis is correct, but merging the left of centre parties to fight the Tories, no.
It's too late for the Assembly elections which are likely to see Tory gains, but there is a good case for a pact between the main parties at the next general election to beat these awful Tories.
I expect the next Assembly to be a supply and demand coalition between Labour and Plaid, with Mark Drakeford, if reelected being a temporary First minister.

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The only figures that add up are a merging of parties for people who won't vote tory

Anything else is going to let this bunch of cowboys and crooks rule the country for decades

The Labour Party " brand " and The Liberal image is tainted and its time to sling the hook

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

A Plaid-labour coalition may well work with Adam Price as the First Minister. But I doubt that Drakeford would accept that.

The really attractive promise from the Tories is to get the M4 relief road built. That'll catch a lot of votes.

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I wouldn't believe a word the tories say about the relief road

Drakeford has got to go , he's a dead duck , I would have eluned morgan in charge , very capable and intelligent woman

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Originally Posted by neilw65

I think a lot of what has been said by both Sludge and former labour leader is correct. However I would also suggest that the way some councils, and WAG itself, run things is poor.

If you look at Caerphilly council as an example, they have been shocking.

Closing leisure centres against the wishes of the people.
Going to court to fight against the wishes of the people.
Building new homes everywhere.
Former leader breaching code of conduct by not declaring interest in major investments.
The former CEO pay scandal.

Then there is the Islwyn candidate travelling to Swindon to see her boyfriend during lockdown, whilst possibly not breaking the law, it certainly breaks the spirit of the lockdown rules and undermines the WAG message.

Oh and a couple of years ago was found guilty of Drink Driving.

None of this helps labours cause and was some of the major talking points on the doorsteps during 2019 election campaign

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I am not going to defend some of the Labour Party dealings at local level

YouGov polls have also showed the Tories leading in Wales over the past couple of years only for the inevitable to happen on election day: Labour victory. 2 months before the 2017GE the Tories were leading in the polls, result? Labour win by 15%

A big issue with politics in Wales is that we don't have a proper media which means political issues in Wales are often ignored or, at best, given a 5 minute slot on BBC Wales. The vaccine success is also helping the Tories at the moment, but is being portrayed in the UK tabloid press as a Tory victory, while the WG aren't getting much credit

I also think that Labour are a busted flush and it would be nice to see them stop treating Wales for granted, I'm hopeful they get replaced by Plaid, but fearful that its the Tories who will benefit

I think a Lab-Plaid coalition is likely and the idea of a shared first ministership has been mooted. Drakeford has already said he wouldn't serve the full term so its already set up for Adam Price to take over halfway through. It could also be used as an excuse for Welsh Lab to pass some policies that UK Labour wouldn't be entirely happy with

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Originally Posted by City123

YouGov polls have also showed the Tories leading in Wales over the past couple of years only for the inevitable to happen on election day: Labour victory. 2 months before the 2017GE the Tories were leading in the polls, result? Labour win by 15%

A big issue with politics in Wales is that we don't have a proper media which means political issues in Wales are often ignored or, at best, given a 5 minute slot on BBC Wales. The vaccine success is also helping the Tories at the moment, but is being portrayed in the UK tabloid press as a Tory victory, while the WG aren't getting much credit

I also think that Labour are a busted flush and it would be nice to see them stop treating Wales for granted, I'm hopeful they get replaced by Plaid, but fearful that its the Tories who will benefit

I think a Lab-Plaid coalition is likely and the idea of a shared first ministership has been mooted. Drakeford has already said he wouldn't serve the full term so its already set up for Adam Price to take over halfway through. It could also be used as an excuse for Welsh Lab to pass some policies that UK Labour wouldn't be entirely happy with

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Plaid are far more socialist than labour will ever be but I am totally opposed to independence so couldn't ever vote plaids, unless it was to keep a tory out

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

A Plaid-labour coalition may well work with Adam Price as the First Minister. But I doubt that Drakeford would accept that.

The really attractive promise from the Tories is to get the M4 relief road built. That'll catch a lot of votes.

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I agree about Adam Price, I think he will be a much stronger First Minister. I saw previously that was a condition of his if there was to ever be a Plaid-Labour coalition, either he was FM or it was split between the two parties.

The Tories are milking the relief road to the high heaven and with people in Britain getting hooked on 1 decision/policy I can see it working to some degree, Plaid supported the cheaper, less environmentally damaging 'blue' route, I never saw what their final decision was or whether it was canned.

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Originally Posted by City123

YouGov polls have also showed the Tories leading in Wales over the past couple of years only for the inevitable to happen on election day: Labour victory. 2 months before the 2017GE the Tories were leading in the polls, result? Labour win by 15%

A big issue with politics in Wales is that we don't have a proper media which means political issues in Wales are often ignored or, at best, given a 5 minute slot on BBC Wales. The vaccine success is also helping the Tories at the moment, but is being portrayed in the UK tabloid press as a Tory victory, while the WG aren't getting much credit

I also think that Labour are a busted flush and it would be nice to see them stop treating Wales for granted, I'm hopeful they get replaced by Plaid, but fearful that its the Tories who will benefit

I think a Lab-Plaid coalition is likely and the idea of a shared first ministership has been mooted. Drakeford has already said he wouldn't serve the full term so its already set up for Adam Price to take over halfway through. It could also be used as an excuse for Welsh Lab to pass some policies that UK Labour wouldn't be entirely happy with

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Have you seen that there was a few Welsh media outlets set up on St.Davids day? The Herald, The National and Nation Cymru, people really need to support and use these as much as possible to get a Welsh media presence.

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Originally Posted by Wozza16

Have you seen that there was a few Welsh media outlets set up on St.Davids day? The Herald, The National and Nation Cymru, people really need to support and use these as much as possible to get a Welsh media presence.

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Nation Cymru's been around a while and is pretty good to be fair. The founder of The National decided to spend the days before launch having a go at Nation Cymru which was strange

It’s a shame there is no middle ground party, I’m sure with a decent leader they would do ok. Who was there one they had about 10 years ago, did quite well and then formed a coalition with the Tories in parliament? Think lots of people don’t like either so just don’t vote or just vote against the one they hate the most.....

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I wouldn't believe a word the tories say about the relief road

Drakeford has got to go , he's a dead duck , I would have eluned morgan in charge , very capable and intelligent woman

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I know Eluned personally and agree she has more charisma than a very honourable but dour Mark Drakeford. She is also very intelligent and politically astute, having been in the European Parliament at a very young age.
I voted for Eluned in the leadership election and bumped into her one day in Morrisons during the campaign. She was knackered. I know people have no sympathy for politicians but there are some who put in the long miles.

Serious question to the Tories on here. What do you think a Tory led government in Wales would do better for the people of Wales than a Labour or Plaid one, or do you want the Welsh government abolished?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I wouldn't believe a word the tories say about the relief road

Drakeford has got to go , he's a dead duck , I would have eluned morgan in charge , very capable and intelligent woman

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I think the M4 relief road will happen if tories win. Grant Shapps has already said he has the money for it, but Drakeford reminded him that transport is a devolved matter and the Gwent Levels are more important.

In my opinion Drakeford has become quite a thorn in Wales side. He is incapable of making big decisions in a timely way and has washed Wales economy onto the rocks. An example...are caravan sites open for Easter? He said a few weeks ago that it might happen on 27th March. Now he says he will decide on 25/26th March whether that will go ahead! How are businesses supposed to handle this sort of indecision from the top?

His record with Covid is none too good, his firebreak was a disaster as was is his timing of the latest lockdown on 20 December. Done with hardly any notice and people rushing into shops for last chance Christmas shopping. No wonder at the time we had the third worse incidence of Covid in the world.

People say he's done better than Boris, but when you look at the figures there's not much in it, and currently Wales are showing worse figures in UK per head of population for hospitalisation of Covid patients.

The sooner he goes the better

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I think the M4 relief road will happen if tories win. Grant Shapps has already said he has the money for it, but Drakeford reminded him that transport is a devolved matter and the Gwent Levels are more important.

In my opinion Drakeford has become quite a thorn in Wales side. He is incapable of making big decisions in a timely way and has washed Wales economy onto the rocks. An example...are caravan sites open for Easter? He said a few weeks ago that it might happen on 27th March. Now he says he will decide on 25/26th March whether that will go ahead! How are businesses supposed to handle this sort of indecision from the top?

His record with Covid is none too good, his firebreak was a disaster as was is his timing of the latest lockdown on 20 December. Done with hardly any notice and people rushing into shops for last chance Christmas shopping. No wonder at the time we had the third worse incidence of Covid in the world.

People say he's done better than Boris, but when you look at the figures there's not much in it, and currently Wales are showing worse figures in UK per head of population for hospitalisation of Covid patients.

The sooner he goes the better

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quick question, why do you refer to the first minister of Wales by his surname, and the prime minister by one of his middle names and not his surname?

I'm a Labour Party member but not a fan of Drakeford.
I don't want independence so wouldn't vote for Plaid Cymru.
I said I would never vote Tory, so won't and Andrew 'RT' Davies is thoroughly dislikable, and talks like a dodgy double glazing salesman.
Do UKIP stand in Wales? I thought their boat had sailed.
LiB Dems is a wasted vote.

Actually they should scrap the lot and save a load of money. The civil servants would still be around in the Welsh Office. But all the well paid politicians would be gone.

I was canvassed by a prospective Labour Party candidate at the local hustings in October 2019, who asked me if I had any questions for her. My question was "What particularly attracts you to the job that carries a salary of £76,000 p.a. plus expenses". I received no answer.

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Originally Posted by Former Labour leader

Serious question to the Tories on here. What do you think a Tory led government in Wales would do better for the people of Wales than a Labour or Plaid one, or do you want the Welsh government abolished?

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I don't particularly think any would be better than another but what is seriously not good is the same party ruling for years and years and knowing they will win the next election so not really caring about the voters except on the run up to polling day.
Familiarity breeds contempt!!

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I think the M4 relief road will happen if tories win. Grant Shapps has already said he has the money for it, but Drakeford reminded him that transport is a devolved matter and the Gwent Levels are more important.

In my opinion Drakeford has become quite a thorn in Wales side. He is incapable of making big decisions in a timely way and has washed Wales economy onto the rocks. An example...are caravan sites open for Easter? He said a few weeks ago that it might happen on 27th March. Now he says he will decide on 25/26th March whether that will go ahead! How are businesses supposed to handle this sort of indecision from the top?

His record with Covid is none too good, his firebreak was a disaster as was is his timing of the latest lockdown on 20 December. Done with hardly any notice and people rushing into shops for last chance Christmas shopping. No wonder at the time we had the third worse incidence of Covid in the world.

People say he's done better than Boris, but when you look at the figures there's not much in it, and currently Wales are showing worse figures in UK per head of population for hospitalisation of Covid patients.

The sooner he goes the better

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I think drakeford is hopeless , I want him gone but I don't want the tories ruling Wales

They do on many things but to completely give over power to them would be unthinkable for me and I would knock it on the head

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Originally Posted by cardiff55

I'm a Labour Party member but not a fan of Drakeford.
I don't want independence so wouldn't vote for Plaid Cymru.
I said I would never vote Tory, so won't and Andrew 'RT' Davies is thoroughly dislikable, and talks like a dodgy double glazing salesman.
Do UKIP stand in Wales? I thought their boat had sailed.
LiB Dems is a wasted vote.

Actually they should scrap the lot and save a load of money. The civil servants would still be around in the Welsh Office. But all the well paid politicians would be gone.

I was canvassed by a prospective Labour Party candidate at the local hustings in October 2019, who asked me if I had any questions for her. My question was "What particularly attracts you to the job that carries a salary of £76,000 p.a. plus expenses". I received no answer.

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I was seeing a Welsh speaking Welsh nationalist at the time of the yes vote for the Welsh assembly. She persuaded me to vote yes only to tell me the next day she and her mum had gone shopping in Cardiff and forget to vote .

That sums up Wales for me , talk the talk

As for the assembly its bullshit but not having it means that the tories would over run Wales completely

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Plaid are far more socialist than labour will ever be but I am totally opposed to independence so couldn't ever vote plaids, unless it was to keep a tory out

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Socialism is impossible as part of a British state, I'll never understand why some socialists and left wingers are so wedded to the union, you'll never get what you want

All i can say, is this. I can't believe that people in this thread really believe that central government Labour is Left Wing. Corbyn Was left wing, he wasn't even far left. And people call for a centrist party, that's Labour, with smatterings of right wing policy.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I wouldn't believe a word the tories say about the relief road

Drakeford has got to go , he's a dead duck , I would have eluned morgan in charge , very capable and intelligent woman

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I think the M4 relief road would go ahead if the Tories win. As has been said, Shapp has said there is money available but Drakeford scuppered the plans because protecting the Gwent levels was more important in his opinion. There is a plan on the Internet showing the route of the relief road and only a small portion of it would actually pass through the levels, the vast majority of the area would be untouched. I believe the flora and fauna will always adapt to the situation it finds itself in anyway, short of a catastrophic destruction of the land.

(https://www.transport-network.co.uk/...rice-tag/13873)

I presume where the road does cross the levels then it would have to be as bridges due to the boggy nature of the ground?

Re: Eluned Morgan. I have met her on a couple of occasions and as you say she seems a very capable and intelligent lady and with a genuine concern for people. Would be a good choice for first minister.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

All i can say, is this. I can't believe that people in this thread really believe that central government Labour is Left Wing. Corbyn Was left wing, he wasn't even far left. And people call for a centrist party, that's Labour, with smatterings of right wing policy.

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It is interesting that in this purely political thread there has been hardly any discussion of the policies of different parties and where they would lead the country. That sort of debate seems to be dead.

The M4 relief road is an important topic, but it's not a party policy.

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Originally Posted by rich munn

It is interesting that in this purely political thread there has been hardly any discussion of the policies of different parties and where they would lead the country. That sort of debate seems to be dead.

The M4 relief road is an important topic, but it's not a party policy.

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Fair shout. We can all be guilty of a bit of political self serving, i know that i can be guilty of it. My biggest concern is services in Wales,, the Tories will attack them, they always have.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I wouldn't believe a word the tories say about the relief road

Drakeford has got to go , he's a dead duck , I would have eluned morgan in charge , very capable and intelligent woman

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Didn't Drakeford as Health Minister oversea a huge cut in the health budget in Wales which may have played a part in Wales not having suffident spare capacity for events like Covid

Worth a read:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/0...arian-windbag/

The Senedd is fiddling while Wales burns. They argue amongst themselves about things that don't matter, while the country is being left behind the rest of the UK. They are so puffed up with their own importance, they've forgotten what they are there for - to work for Wales, and to look out for it's interests. Wales has gone backwards in the last twenty years, and that rate in which we are falling behind is accelerating. Something has to change.
People in Wales have a built-in tendency to vote for Labour (right or wrong) and that has led to complacency and a lack of will amongst it's politicians. Why bother trying, if you're going to get elected anyway? The Senedd is a talking shop for second rate politicians who couldn't make the grade at Westminster. It's time for a change.

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Originally Posted by tforturton

The Senedd is fiddling while Wales burns. They argue amongst themselves about things that don't matter, while the country is being left behind the rest of the UK. They are so puffed up with their own importance, they've forgotten what they are there for - to work for Wales, and to look out for it's interests. Wales has gone backwards in the last twenty years, and that rate in which we are falling behind is accelerating. Something has to change.
People in Wales have a built-in tendency to vote for Labour (right or wrong) and that has led to complacency and a lack of will amongst it's politicians. Why bother trying, if you're going to get elected anyway? The Senedd is a talking shop for second rate politicians who couldn't make the grade at Westminster. It's time for a change.

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I think that is basically what I said.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

Didn't Drakeford as Health Minister oversea a huge cut in the health budget in Wales which may have played a part in Wales not having suffident spare capacity for events like Covid

Worth a read:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/0...arian-windbag/

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why do you think drakeford had to make budget cuts ?

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

All i can say, is this. I can't believe that people in this thread really believe that central government Labour is Left Wing. Corbyn Was left wing, he wasn't even far left. And people call for a centrist party, that's Labour, with smatterings of right wing policy.

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Well if a left wing party under corbyn got a beating in the polls do you think a far left party would do better ?

I would love a socialist party in control of this country but its never going to happen so we have to try and get the best we can

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Originally Posted by rich munn

It is interesting that in this purely political thread there has been hardly any discussion of the policies of different parties and where they would lead the country. That sort of debate seems to be dead.

The M4 relief road is an important topic, but it's not a party policy.

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I think a left of centre party would lead this country into a better place than Boris and his crew of libertarians

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Originally Posted by tforturton

The Senedd is fiddling while Wales burns. They argue amongst themselves about things that don't matter, while the country is being left behind the rest of the UK. They are so puffed up with their own importance, they've forgotten what they are there for - to work for Wales, and to look out for it's interests. Wales has gone backwards in the last twenty years, and that rate in which we are falling behind is accelerating. Something has to change.
People in Wales have a built-in tendency to vote for Labour (right or wrong) and that has led to complacency and a lack of will amongst it's politicians. Why bother trying, if you're going to get elected anyway? The Senedd is a talking shop for second rate politicians who couldn't make the grade at Westminster. It's time for a change.

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to the conservatives , christ no

Getting rid of the assembly ?

Thats a matter for debate

Labour are not finished.Their time will come again but they desperately need a charismatic leader.

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Originally Posted by Pearcey3

Labour are not finished.Their time will come again but they desperately need a charismatic leader.

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Agreed. There was talk 20 years ago that the Tories were finished after successive Labour landslides. The Tories haven't even got close to emulating that level of support.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Agreed. There was talk 20 years ago that the Tories were finished after successive Labour landslides. The Tories haven't even got close to emulating that level of support.

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Both in Wales and England Labour decent leaders (imo). But both lack the charisma of previous leaders.
Mark Drakeford is no Rhodri Morgan, Keir Starmer is no Tony Blair or even Jeremy Corbyn.
If you look to Scotland Nicola Sturgeon has bags of charisma.
Assuming MD is reelected he always intended standing down midway the next government. Hopefully members will elect the right candidate preferably a woman, to take the Labo6party forward.

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Originally Posted by Pearcey3

Labour are not finished.Their time will come again but they desperately need a charismatic leader.

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Labour are finished until they decide who they are.

It’s like 2 separate parties in one with conflicting policies, conflicting people and a conflicting vision.

I’d love to vote Labour but for every one thing I agree with there’s two that I don’t.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well if a left wing party under corbyn got a beating in the polls do you think a far left party would do better ?

I would love a socialist party in control of this country but its never going to happen so we have to try and get the best we can

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I'm not asking for a far left party, even in the unlikely event of it happening, the establishment would crush it, as they did with Corbyn, as did plenty of his Parliamentary party members, because they're not really left wing, they're pro business, pro Bosses, in fear of a right wing media. I think what you want is a Tory lite party, because you think that there's no other option. The Bullies and Gangsters have decided which way politics is going in this country, just to protect their own interests, plenty of people jumping on board with it. I'll never endorse the dilution of real left wing politics, even though it's been happening for the past 30 years.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I'm not asking for a far left party, even in the unlikely event of it happening, the establishment would crush it, as they did with Corbyn, as did plenty of his Parliamentary party members, because they're not really left wing, they're pro business, pro Bosses, in fear of a right wing media. I think what you want is a Tory lite party, because you think that there's no other option. The Bullies and Gangsters have decided which way politics is going in this country, just to protect their own interests, plenty of people jumping on board with it. I'll never endorse the dilution of real left wing politics, even though it's been happening for the past 30 years.

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I'm fairly convinced that most people who see themselves as "Proper Labour voters" really want that.

We're a servile nation who fetishise authority to the extent that we've got swathes of the country supporting a bill that severely infringes our right to protest. Relatively tame demonstrations are condemned even by liberals and the Labour Party. A former Labour leader was hounded on television for refusing to say he'd commit mass murder through nuclear war while his successor (who abhors violence unless its by the state) says confidently he'd do it. Labour's fully costed, moderately socialist manifesto was considered "far left", "loony", "Stalinist" etc. Anybody who believes in basic decency is a "woke snowflake", anyone who questions whether Winston Churchill was an amazing superhero who did nothing wrong apparently hates the country.

British political discourse has shifted to such a degree that I honestly can't see a Labour government forming for a long time, never mind a properly left wing one. Regardless, Labour are not a vehicle for change, they have vested interests in retaining the status quo. That's true in Westminster and here in Wales