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Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
I had long believed that a number of our players were capable of more. I am not so sure now.
However it would be unfair to dismiss the injuries or the fixture list. Similarly if players are on the subs bench they should be be good enough to start.
What I believe we do know is that our style of football doesn’t sustained success.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
I think we're the probably the 9th best side in the league because of our squad (specifically the previous manager's odd take on squad building) and are currently placed 12th with a good chunk of the difference down to the current manager.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
I think we’ll know by the end of January, we have a lot of winnable games coming up over the next 5 weeks, if the team doesn’t look like challenging for the top six by then it’ll either be down to poor tactics and/or team selection or too many individual mistakes and performances. My feeling is we’ve got a better than mid mid table squad, anything other than top six at the end of the season and I think we’ll be under new management for the 2021/22 season, Harris has been a manager who can get teams a winning runs, but also see them get stuck in a rut, he needs a consistent second half of the season to keep his job.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUEAWAY
I had long believed that a number of our players were capable of more. I am not so sure now.
However it would be unfair to dismiss the injuries or the fixture list. Similarly if players are on the subs bench they should be be good enough to start.
What I believe we do know is that our style of football doesn’t sustained success.
It is the squad. Harris over achieved last season in getting the team to the playoffs.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUEAWAY
I had long believed that a number of our players were capable of more. I am not so sure now.
However it would be unfair to dismiss the injuries or the fixture list. Similarly if players are on the subs bench they should be be good enough to start.
What I believe we do know is that our style of football doesn’t sustained success.
Which ones?
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
The squad isnt strong enough.
We need a right back , midfielder and a striker at a minimum to challenge.
It looks like we need to get players out to get some in.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Squad. Which of our players get in Norwich, Watford, Bournemouth or Brentford’s team? I don’t think one player. It’s a complete freak year but the point still stands, we are mid table because we have mid table players. I think if Moore gets back fit and replicates his form, he could be a PL footballer.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Because of the club. Joe ralls has done well with us, i reckon that if he'd have been developed by a club that invested more in footballing awareness, comfort in possession and confidence in advanced areas, he'd be a much better player.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeningradCowboy
Which ones?
Wilson.
Ralls.
Murphy.
Hoilet.
Bacuna.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
To be honest it is a bit of both.
If you look at the current clubs in the top 6 then you would be hard pressed to see more than a couple of City players who would push for a place. One of them might be Wilson, who is a loanee.
Our recruitment in the last 2-3 seasons has been poor with extremely average signings to fit into an average style of play.
The top 6 teams make us look like there is a gap of a division in the way we play. That has got to be the fault of the coach.
I did state when Warnock was dismissed, that we needed a manager with new ideas and a 2-3 year period for implementation. Mid table mediocrity while building in the correct way would have been far more acceptable than what we are doing today.
Posters who keep talking about a top 6 finish are completely deluded.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DubaiDai
To be honest it is a bit of both.
If you look at the current clubs in the top 6 then you would be hard pressed to see more than a couple of City players who would push for a place. One of them might be Wilson, who is a loanee.
Our recruitment in the last 2-3 seasons has been poor with extremely average signings to fit into an average style of play.
The top 6 teams make us look like there is a gap of a division in the way we play. That has got to be the fault of the coach.
I did state when Warnock was dismissed, that we needed a manager with new ideas and a 2-3 year period for implementation. Mid table mediocrity while building in the correct way would have been far more acceptable than what we are doing today.
Posters who keep talking about a top 6 finish are completely deluded.
Under Warnock and under Harris last season we could compete with the better sides, the ones who played. It was a stretch although we seemed to find a way of doing it. This season has seen us found out by the better sides, they've worked out the final number in the combination to stopping us having any success against them, and that's to match us physically. Do that and we can't compete against the likes of Norwich, Bournemouth, Swansea etc. I would say Watford, but i don't think that they were that good.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Wilson.
Ralls.
Murphy.
Hoilet.
Bacuna.
What has Murphy done to be included? Hoilett is a fine player but starting to show just how long he's been involved in high profile football.
Biggest criticism of transfers made under Harris would be starting season with just one RB. Think it's really hard to be critical of any other decision that's been made, if you're being realistic about our options. In retrospect, extending Tomlin and Nelson may be considered misses but they were each hits at the time of doing the deals. Transfer business has been one of the major strengths during Harris' time so far and without this we'd be a lot worse than being 9th best.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
The Top four at the moment are clearly the best footballing teams and should finish there, in no particular order. Watford arent as fluent but they do have match winners so they should make the play offs too. The rest of us are scrapping it out for 6th. It's early days but I think Warnock will have the edge and sneak it for Boro.
There's plenty of points to play for and in typical toe to toe championship matches we will win more than we lose. We're just incapable of beating slick footballing teams as we chase shadows and tire in games.
If we are lucky enough to see Tomlin & Moore for a significant part of the season that could be the key to a late surge as they're both quality at this level but without that combination I'm afraid we're bang average, or slightly above. We desperately need Jordi back too.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Wilson.
Ralls.
Murphy.
Hoilet.
Bacuna.
Would you swap Wilson for Buendia, Sarr, Mbuemo, Cantwell, Brooks etc? No.
Hoilett's legs have gone, Ralls is limited (but I agree), Bacuna is out of position and Murphy has stunk out the place for the best part of 3 seasons. Comes a time when it stops being the manager and starts to be the player.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
198bore
The Top four at the moment are clearly the best footballing teams and should finish there, in no particular order. Watford arent as fluent but they do have match winners so they should make the play offs too. The rest of us are scrapping it out for 6th. It's early days but I think Warnock will have the edge and sneak it for Boro.
There's plenty of points to play for and in typical toe to toe championship matches we will win more than we lose. We're just incapable of beating slick footballing teams as we chase shadows and tire in games.
If we are lucky enough to see Tomlin & Moore for a significant part of the season that could be the key to a late surge as they're both quality at this level but without that combination I'm afraid we're bang average, or slightly above. We desperately need Jordi back too.
IF Boro go up through the playoffs, will they replace Warnock in the summer - which is what we should have done?
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fingers
IF Boro go up through the playoffs, will they replace Warnock in the summer - which is what we should have done?
I think the last two seasons have shown the massive limitations of the squad and not even Pep or Mourninho would have kept us up with the money we spent.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
I'd say both. After 21 games, the top five in the Championship table are the three sides who were relegated from the Premier League last season and two of the three teams who contested last season's play-offs with eventual winners Fulham. No prizes for guessing which of last season's play-off semi-finalists is missing from the current shake-up.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
I doubt they'll make it but if they do, and he does have that x-factor to cause an upset, then I expect they'll be as grateful as we were and stick with him. We did scrap it out until the penultimate game despite everything going against us that season.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
We've a manager with a proven track record for mediocrity, and a team that isn't as good as the likes of Norwich, Brentford or Swansea. Mid-table to just outside the top six is what we are.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
elytillidie
We've a manager with a proven track record for mediocrity, and a team that isn't as good as the likes of Norwich, Brentford or Swansea. Mid-table to just outside the top six is what we are.
Unfortunately true. Finishing 5th and adding Moore, Wilson & Jodri seemed promising though.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Because of the club. Joe ralls has done well with us, i reckon that if he'd have been developed by a club that invested more in footballing awareness, comfort in possession and confidence in advanced areas, he'd be a much better player.
Great point.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
I think Harris overacheived last season, brought in some good signings but has been limited by the mess Warnock left
I don't think Harris is a particularly good manager, but he's done better than I expected
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
surge
What has Murphy done to be included? Hoilett is a fine player but starting to show just how long he's been involved in high profile football.
Biggest criticism of transfers made under Harris would be starting season with just one RB. Think it's really hard to be critical of any other decision that's been made, if you're being realistic about our options. In retrospect, extending Tomlin and Nelson may be considered misses but they were each hits at the time of doing the deals. Transfer business has been one of the major strengths during Harris' time so far and without this we'd be a lot worse than being 9th best.
With regards to Murphy I was responding to this line : Originally Posted by*BLUEAWAY*"I had long believed that a number of our players were capable of more"
I belive he is capable of more and has undelivered.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
I have sympathy for Harris in that he's trying to/ tried to change the way we play at a time when the board are not backing him like the previous manager. I imagine it's a difficult task to try and change an in built philosophy and style of football without being able to bring in the players that would help do it. I think until he's had a couple of successful transfer windows it's hard to be overly judgemental.
And whilst football is a results game, it's important not to forget that the the club is in a much more positive position that it has been for a while - young players getting first team squad exposure, massive reduction in our wage bill, some shrewd transfer business with Moore and Wilson.
Let's hope that January allows us to re-shape the squad a little more and that we start seeing the emergence of more youth. A little cup run or a shot at the play-offs would be an added bonus.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
198bore
Unfortunately true. Finishing 5th and adding Moore, Wilson & Jodri seemed promising though.
In hindsight that run to the play was perhaps a false dawn , or we simply adjusted quicker and better to closed stadiums football than other sides, perhaps the extra subs and extra breaks within those games hid so e fault lines ? as you say technically we've added better players and sadly not progressed .
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
City123
I think Harris overacheived last season, brought in some good signings but has been limited by the mess Warnock left
I don't think Harris is a particularly good manager, but he's done better than I expected
Agreed
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pedro de la Rosa
Would you swap Wilson for Buendia, Sarr, Mbuemo, Cantwell, Brooks etc? No.
Hoilett's legs have gone, Ralls is limited (but I agree), Bacuna is out of position and Murphy has stunk out the place for the best part of 3 seasons. Comes a time when it stops being the manager and starts to be the player.
I'd take last season's version of Lee Tomlin over Harry Wilson at this point. Wilson is capable of brilliant moments, but he goes missing far too often when we play him as a number 10.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LeningradCowboy
Which ones?
Accepting that there are always better players and the need to be realistic.
Comparing us to the relegated teams is one measure but maybe Brentford is fairer.
If we were trying to emulate the style of those teams and move away from long ball then I think Smithies and Morrison could hold onto their positions with both probably now doing as much as they are capable off.
I think Bennett and Nelson could be better players in the right team.
Bacuna not sure if he would be good enough in midfield.
Ralls sadly too slow but could still improve.
Pack and Vaulks no.
Hoillett past his best.
Murphy has had too many chances. Just not good enough.
Glatzel. Capable of more with better service but would he fit the style.
Moore. Has been very good but again the wrong style.
Cunningham, Bamba. We need to look forward.
Tomlin. Has too few good games and too slow.
Harris. Unsure.
Whyte. No
Ojo and Osei will become better players.
Wilson. Needs to find his best position, man up and deliver more consistently.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
City123
I think Harris overacheived last season, brought in some good signings but has been limited by the mess Warnock left
I don't think Harris is a particularly good manager, but he's done better than I expected
Totally agree.
I think we may end this season around 12th position but we should not expect much more. Harris is very limited and any successes will probably be due to “dog fight” games.
It is clear that, like most clubs, City are simply going to throw money around.
The return of Moore, Joudi and Tomlin will definitely help but it probably will not change how we play football, which is why we are mid table
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
I haven't noticed any -what I would consider permanent- drop off in Hoilett's performances. He is what he his, a decent footballer, but somewhat limited. However, he's a more than capable Championship player in my opinion.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NYCBlue
I haven't noticed any -what I would consider permanent- drop off in Hoilett's performances. He is what he his, a decent footballer, but somewhat limited. However, he's a more than capable Championship player in my opinion.
He was our best player by a mile in the promotion season. He's lost half a yard, at least.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
You could bring in any manager with the best of credentials but sadly that wouldn't cut it. The team have players that can only play one way by lumping the ball to Moore or Morrison. While these two are our best players by far, the rest of the side is sadly lacking and no manager, however, good could get results without a major restructuring of the squad.
The Board have a big decision to make. They either persevere with Harris and the same players or change the manager with funds to rebuild the squad. Given the fact there is no money for new players the only realistic option is to stick with Harris.
In answer to the question, we are where we are due to both the manager and squad.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUEAWAY
Ojo and Osei will become better players.
Wilson. Needs to find his best position, man up and deliver more consistently.
This.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pedro de la Rosa
He was our best player by a mile in the promotion season. He's lost half a yard, at least.
I think he has since Warnock left. This isn't a Warnock - great, Harris - not post, but Warnock managed to get him to perform and conjour up some moments of magic, like the winner against Wolves in the PL. We haven't seen that since Harris took over. I'm not blaming Harris for this, just to reemphasise, but sometimes players work better with certain managers and don't so well with others.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Watching the Hudson Interview it was interesting to hear him confirm just how good Warnock was at motivating players before a game. I think he said that was his strength and inferred that it made up for other weaknesses.
I do believe that the likes of Hoillett, Bamba, Morrison and some others would respond to that.
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
The players have to take a lot of responsibility for the current situation. On the other hand, why are there so many 'professionals' at the club who cannot pass, move into space or develop some urgency in their approach only when they fall behind in a game?
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
I think he has since Warnock left. This isn't a Warnock - great, Harris - not post, but Warnock managed to get him to perform and conjour up some moments of magic, like the winner against Wolves in the PL. We haven't seen that since Harris took over. I'm not blaming Harris for this, just to reemphasise, but sometimes players work better with certain managers and don't so well with others.
Hoilett is in his 30s, he's played an awful lot of football in his career and he's peaked. It doesn't help he's played tournaments every summer! He's still our best contracted winger...
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Re: Bottom line. Are we a mid table team because of the squad or the Manager?
The squad. Why should professional football players require motivation in order to accurately pass a ball, move into spaces or play with some urgency BEFORE they go a goal behind?