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People using "Americanisms"
I'll give an example:
"I'm looking forward to the new season of Line of Duty..."
:facepalm:
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
B. Oddie
I'll give an example:
"I'm looking forward to the new season of Line of Duty..."
:facepalm:
Language is a moving feast and changes constantly. Grammar, nouns, verbs, phrases and meanings are all subject to change. Misspellings can become the standard version (and as to what spellings became the standard version in the first place is another story altogether). Some Americanisms (such as 'gotten') may grate with us are old English words we have since dispensed with. Grammatical rules we learned at school were often the results of academics trying to shoe-horn Latinisms on our Germanic language (which is heavily laced with vocabulary inherited from our Norman conquerors, of course). Plurals used to be expressed in different ways in different parts of the country, depending on linguistic influences in the regions concerned.
Change is the norm regarding language. Best roll with it and see it as part of the same continuum that spawned the English Language in the first place.
Consider where each of the words you just used came from: mostly German and partly French.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Language is a moving feast and changes constantly. Grammar, nouns, verbs, phrases and meanings are all subject to change. Misspellings can become the standard version (and as to what spellings became the standard version in the first place is another story altogether). Some Americanisms (such as 'gotten') may grate with us are old English words we have since dispensed with. Grammatical rules we learned at school were often the results of academics trying to shoe-horn Latinisms on our Germanic language (which is heavily laced with vocabulary inherited from our Norman conquerors, of course). Plurals used to be expressed in different ways in different parts of the country, depending on linguistic influences in the regions concerned.
Change is the norm regarding language. Best roll with it and see it as part of the same continuum that spawned the English Language in the first place.
Consider where each of the words you just used came from: mostly German and partly French.
Well you just painted him all over the walls, I guess this thread's over :hehe:
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
delmbox
Well you just painted him all over the walls, I guess this thread's over :hehe:
Apologies, I didn't mean to make anyone feel small. Language fascinates me and I got carried away :-)
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Apologies, I didn't mean to make anyone feel small. Language fascinates me and I got carried away :-)
I was only teasing, you're right in your point though. Language is constantly evolving, as grating as some new developments in language can be they're basically the modern equivalent of not saying thee and thou etc anymore
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Apologies, I didn't mean to make anyone feel small. Language fascinates me and I got carried away :-)
Accents fascinate me, although i don't have a great deal of knowledge on how and why. It fascinates me on how i can drive from the top of Thornhill and come down the other side of a big hill, no more that a mile or so, and the accent changes. Maybe it's because of that big hill!
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
assists
What the feck is all that about ?
Premier league cobblers
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Accents fascinate me, although i don't have a great deal of knowledge on how and why. It fascinates me on how i can drive from the top of Thornhill and come down the other side of a big hill, no more that a mile or so, and the accent changes. Maybe it's because of that big hill!
I will try and avoid making this particular contribution a sermon as well :hehe: but accents and dialect are incredibly fascinating. It's only centralised power in the way of governments/regimes that declare one particular version as the standard and which is usually considered 'posh' thereafter. The diversity of language and languages is an absolute joy but I'll shut up now :-)
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
assists
What the feck is all that about ?
Premier league cobblers
Yup, that's just bullshit. It's 'Setting Up'
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Yup, that's just bullshit. It's 'Setting Up'
offense
When they start using that is when I start taking the pills
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
assists
What the feck is all that about ?
Premier league cobblers
The concept had existed in ice hockey for a very long time, I believe. On the one hand I don't like it as it's alien to me (and that concept may sound familiar) but on the other hand I can understand that someone who sets up a lot of goals is recognised as being of particular value.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I will try and avoid making this particular contribution a sermon as well :hehe: but accents and dialect are incredibly fascinating. It's only centralised power in the way of governments/regimes that declare one particular version as the standard and which is usually considered 'posh' thereafter. The diversity of language and languages is an absolute joy but I'll shut up now :-)
'Sermon' away, i might learn something :thumbup: Port Cities in the UK have some incredible dialect, Liverpool, Newcastle, Cardiff, Portsmouth etc. In land, where there is agriculture, it's less aggressive, almost sleepy. I wonder if the actual built environment forms an accent.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
'Sermon' away, i might learn something :thumbup: Port Cities in the UK have some incredible dialect, Liverpool, Newcastle, Cardiff, Portsmouth etc. In land, where there is agriculture, it's less aggressive, almost sleepy. I wonder if the actual built environment forms an accent.
Or Landscape.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
offense
When they start using that is when I start taking the pills
Late 14th century English, old fruit.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
'Sermon' away, i might learn something :thumbup: Port Cities in the UK have some incredible dialect, Liverpool, Newcastle, Cardiff, Portsmouth etc. In land, where there is agriculture, it's less aggressive, almost sleepy. I wonder if the actual built environment forms an accent.
For years so called language experts refused to accept they way Londoners speak as an accent or dialect but it is. People tend to forget too the fact that the port of London and London docks were massive for centuries with all the differing nationals and accents that brings. A couple of hundred years ago there were so many ships trying to unload in the pool that it was said you could walk from one side of the pool of London to the other from ship to ship without getting your feet wet.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
For years so called language experts refused to accept they way Londoners speak as an accent or dialect but it is. People tend to forget too the fact that the port of London and London docks were massive for centuries with all the differing nationals and accents that brings. A couple of hundred years ago there were so many ships trying to unload in the pool that it was said you could walk from one side of the pool of London to the other from ship to ship without getting your feet wet.
What language experts are you referring to? They sound pretty dopey to me and not very 'expert' - as a dialect is particular form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group. Not David Crystal, I'm sure!
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
What language experts are you referring to? They sound pretty dopey to me and not very 'expert' - as a dialect is particular form of a language which is peculiar to a specific region or social group. Not David Crystal, I'm sure!
I listened to a discussion on the subject many years ago, with these people saying the cornish or the geordie speech was dialectic but london wasn't. I never agreed with it. I have known londoners all over the world in my time and their manner of speaking is equally as identifiable as any other english.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
I listened to a discussion on the subject many years ago, with these people saying the cornish or the geordie speech was dialectic but london wasn't. I never agreed with it. I have known londoners all over the world in my time and their manner of speaking is equally as identifiable as any other english.
Many linguistic terms (e.g. language, dialect, accent) can't easily be defined 100% as they are part of a linguistic spectrum and/or continuum. Dogmatism and language don't always mix well.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Many linguistic terms (e.g. language, dialect, accent) can't easily be defined 100% as they are part of a linguistic spectrum and/or continuum. Dogmatism and language don't always mix well.
Here's one for you. Why do Scandinavians seem to have the ability to speak English very well and even pick up the local accent?
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Pi$$ed being used for fed up rather than drunk is wrong.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Here's one for you. Why do Scandinavians seem to have the ability to speak English very well and even pick up the local accent?
Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are Germanic languages, as is English.
All those countries speak 'minor languages' and it is recognised by the educational system that they need to learn a 'world language' to get by - and English fits that bill in current times.
They all watch English language TV series and films in English but with sub-titles (unlike Germans whose programmes/films are usually dubbed)
English is considered 'cool'.
However, I will take my cue from anyone on here who knows more about the subject than I do and/or who has lived in Scandinavia. (I have only lived on the German/Dutch border).
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Language is a moving feast and changes constantly. Grammar, nouns, verbs, phrases and meanings are all subject to change. Misspellings can become the standard version (and as to what spellings became the standard version in the first place is another story altogether). Some Americanisms (such as 'gotten') may grate with us are old English words we have since dispensed with. Grammatical rules we learned at school were often the results of academics trying to shoe-horn Latinisms on our Germanic language (which is heavily laced with vocabulary inherited from our Norman conquerors, of course). Plurals used to be expressed in different ways in different parts of the country, depending on linguistic influences in the regions concerned.
Change is the norm regarding language. Best roll with it and see it as part of the same continuum that spawned the English Language in the first place.
Consider where each of the words you just used came from: mostly German and partly French.
Interesting point, but I'm referring mainly to the phrases associated with American-English being used more frequently in British English rather than the origin of words or languages that have been encouraged by academics or even forcibly through colonialism.
Ultimately, my view on the use of the phrases that have crept in over recent years e.g. "Can I get a..." is that there is an air of pretence given by the user in a similar way that the 'yuppies' had.
I've also noticed that there's a often an inexplicable change in the user's diction to a pseudo-American accent when these phrases are being used, e.g. "you know what I mean, right!?"
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
B. Oddie
Interesting point, but I'm referring mainly to the phrases associated with American-English being used more frequently in British English rather than the origin of words or languages that have been encouraged by academics or even forcibly through colonialism.
Ultimately, my view on the use of the phrases that have crept in over recent years e.g. "Can I get a..." is that there is an air of pretence given by the user in a similar way that the 'yuppies' had.
I've also noticed that there's a often an inexplicable change in the user's diction to a pseudo-American accent when these phrases are being used, e.g. "you know what I mean, right!?"
and "from the get go".......
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
I reckon so may young people have been brought up watching dross US TV programmes that their language has been affected as a result
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Apologies, I didn't mean to make anyone feel small. Language fascinates me and I got carried away :-)
I didn't feel "small" at all, so I've no idea what Delmbox is talking about. Not everything is about getting one over someone else....
I'm considering doing my Masters next year. If I don't do it soon, I'll never do it and will regret it, I think.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
B. Oddie
Interesting point, but I'm referring mainly to the phrases associated with American-English being used more frequently in British English rather than the origin of words or languages that have been encouraged by academics or even forcibly through colonialism.
Ultimately, my view on the use of the phrases that have crept in over recent years e.g. "Can I get a..." is that there is an air of pretence given by the user in a similar way that the 'yuppies' had.
I've also noticed that there's a often an inexplicable change in the user's diction to a pseudo-American accent when these phrases are being used, e.g. "you know what I mean, right!?"
But what you are talking about is all part of the same continuum. Linguistic influences arrive via a myriad of conduits and particular via modern media such as TV, radio and the Internet - phrases, inflections, mannerisms, pronunciations included. As a young man, I remember the word 'harass' being pronounced differently and I think that the change was probably due to the influence of American English. 'Ongoing' was a word that sounded awful to the British ear but I, like many others, have succumbed to using it. On the other hand, the American phrase 'talking with' as opposed to 'speaking to' seems wonderfully democratic.
We may wish to try and circle the linguistic wagons ourselves but our language (and it's no longer 'ours') will move on whether we like it or not. Similarly, Spanish-speakers in Spain are outnumbered by their counterparts in South America, as are the Portuguese-speakers in Portugal.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
B. Oddie
I didn't feel "small" at all, so I've no idea what Delmbox is talking about. Not everything is about getting one over someone else....
I'm considering doing my Masters next year. If I don't do it soon, I'll never do it and will regret it, I think.
Delmbox was ribbing me and I was apologising for coming over as a total lunatic :-)
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
tomcat
and "from the get go".......
Comes from 'black' slang in the 1960's apparently. A bit like 'rock and roll' (which meant sex).
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Comes from 'black' slang in the 1960's apparently. A bit like 'rock and roll' (which meant sex).
Interesting:thumbup:
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
But what you are talking about is all part of the same continuum. Linguistic influences arrive via a myriad of conduits and particular via modern media such as TV, radio and the Internet - phrases, inflections, mannerisms, pronunciations included. As a young man, I remember the word 'harass' being pronounced differently and I think that the change was probably due to the influence of American English. 'Ongoing' was a word that sounded awful to the British ear but I, like many others, have succumbed to using it. On the other hand, the American phrase 'talking with' as opposed to 'speaking to' seems wonderfully democratic.
We may wish to try and circle the linguistic wagons ourselves but our language (and it's no longer 'ours') will move on whether we like it or not. Similarly, Spanish-speakers in Spain are outnumbered by their counterparts in South America, as are the Portuguese-speakers in Portugal.
Where did the use of sick as being used to describe something as being great come from? Did it hail from some Germanic/French word? My American and Canadian colleagues use it every day... and now my kids do too ... Bloody Germans!!!
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
B. Oddie
I'll give an example:
"I'm looking forward to the new season of Line of Duty..."
:facepalm:
Does it really bother you that much?
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
StraightOuttaCanton
Where did the use of ‘sick’ as being used to describe something as being great come from? Did it hail from some Germanic/French word? My American and Canadian colleagues use it every day... and now my kids do too ... Bloody Germans!!!
The work 'sick' does come to us from the Germanic root. In fact, the Dutch name for a hospital is 'Ziekenhuis', a house for the sick, as it were.
As for the usage of the word 'sick' in a positive sense I would imagine that it's a 'street thing' and incorporates the same playful irony as when some people use the word 'bad' as meaning good. It's more to do with slang than Schleswig-Holstein methinks.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
I used to despair of people beginning their answer to a question with the word "so", but it's established itself now and won't be disappearing - I'd say it originated more in Australia than America though.
The "get go" has been mentioned and it's a phrase I refuse to use, because "start" works well enough for me and is the word I was taught to use to describe the beginning of something.
I'm sure that "back in the day" has been talked about on here before and it's a relatively recent term (80s I think) - I can't ever remember using it and, again, don't see why a simple "in the past" isn't sufficient.
I'm not sure these are Americanisms, but I've only heard them in the last decade or so and, although this probably says more about me than who says them, I find myself turning against the speaker whenever I hear it.
1. "North of" - what's wrong with "more than" and I don't get why the people who use that expression never seem to say "south of" instead of "less than"".
2. When and why did people start saying "speaks to" rather than "(is) about"?
3. "Moving forward", why did "in the future" lose popularity?
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
I used to despair of people beginning their answer to a question with the word "so", but it's established itself now and won't be disappearing - I'd say it originated more in Australia than America though.
The "get go" has been mentioned and it's a phrase I refuse to use, because "start" works well enough for me and is the word I was taught to use to describe the beginning of something.
I'm sure that "back in the day" has been talked about on here before and it's a relatively recent term (80s I think) - I can't ever remember using it and, again, don't see why a simple "in the past" isn't sufficient.
I'm not sure these are Americanisms, but I've only heard them in the last decade or so and, although this probably says more about me than who says them, I find myself turning against the speaker whenever I hear it.
1. "North of" - what's wrong with "more than" and I don't get why the people who use that expression never seem to say "south of" instead of "less than"".
2. When and why did people start saying "speaks to" rather than "(is) about"?
3. "Moving forward", why did "in the future" lose popularity?
Don't we sometimes use the decorative word 'Well' when starting a sentence when others say 'So'?
By the way, I am not a fan of the "I'm good" retort but it will probably be doing the rounds long after I expire.
The word 'nice' used to mean ignorant so it's a waste of time being too Canute-like regarding language.
Early this week I was reading about metathesis i.e. where consonant change places in a word e.g. bird was formally brid, foliage was previously foilage, wasp was previously węps etc.
Metathesis exists both across and within languages.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Don't we sometimes use the decorative word 'Well' when starting a sentence when others say 'So'?
By the way, I am not a fan of the "I'm good" retort but it will probably be doing the rounds long after I expire.
The word 'nice' used to mean ignorant so it's a waste of time being too Canute-like regarding language.
Early this week I was reading about metathesis i.e. where consonant change places in a word e.g. bird was formally brid, foliage was previously foilage, wasp was previously węps etc.
Metathesis exists both across and within languages.
But so means because, whereas Well indicates an answer to what was asked. As for 'nice' my understanding has always been that nice originally meant fine as in very slim, for example 'a nice distinction' between two points of view. But I believe that the word had several differing meanings.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are Germanic languages, as is English.
All those countries speak 'minor languages' and it is recognised by the educational system that they need to learn a 'world language' to get by - and English fits that bill in current times.
They all watch English language TV series and films in English but with sub-titles (unlike Germans whose programmes/films are usually dubbed)
English is considered 'cool'.
However, I will take my cue from anyone on here who knows more about the subject than I do and/or who has lived in Scandinavia. (I have only lived on the German/Dutch border).
I also think a lot of influence comes from if their TV shows and filmed are dubbed or subtitled. You find countries that have subtitles with the original english dialogue often have a better grasp of the language and accents. sorry just saw you mentioned this!
Also since learning foreign languages and living abroad it really increased my interest in how language works and things I would find annoying before I actually accept is just language evolving.
You also find the things that annoy us are often the "correct" or original way of saying things. Season and series as used by Americans is exactly how it is in french too (Season to mean the 1st or second season and series to mean the tv show itself)
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
The use of the word literally to mean the exact opposite of literally used to really annoy me but even the definition of it in the dictionary has changed now. An interesting example of the evolution of a word in a very short space of time.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
But what you are talking about is all part of the same continuum. Linguistic influences arrive via a myriad of conduits and particular via modern media such as TV, radio and the Internet - phrases, inflections, mannerisms, pronunciations included. As a young man, I remember the word 'harass' being pronounced differently and I think that the change was probably due to the influence of American English. 'Ongoing' was a word that sounded awful to the British ear but I, like many others, have succumbed to using it. On the other hand, the American phrase 'talking with' as opposed to 'speaking to' seems wonderfully democratic.
We may wish to try and circle the linguistic wagons ourselves but our language (and it's no longer 'ours') will move on whether we like it or not. Similarly, Spanish-speakers in Spain are outnumbered by their counterparts in South America, as are the Portuguese-speakers in Portugal.
A lot of 'Americanisms' are actually of English origin, having survived export whilst losing influence in the UK. Similarly with words like 'sidewalk' and pavement'. Sidewalk is English in origin, pavement French. As the song goes, you say 'Tomato' with an 'A' as opposed to an 'AH'. When British started colonizing America a lot of English in the provinces would have pronounced it the American way. It was in London and the upper echelons of society where Received Pronunciation was the norm, that the 'AH' sound in tomato spread to the general UK population. There's a really good piece on The Great Vowel Shift here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOOAb7erAmE
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
A Quiet Monkfish
A lot of 'Americanisms' are actually of English origin, having survived export whilst losing influence in the UK. Similarly with words like 'sidewalk' and pavement'. Sidewalk is English in origin, pavement French. As the song goes, you say 'Tomato' with an 'A' as opposed to an 'AH'. When British started colonizing America a lot of English in the provinces would have pronounced it the American way. It was in London and the upper echelons of society where Received Pronunciation was the norm, that the 'AH' sound in tomato spread to the general UK population. There's a really good piece on The Great Vowel Shift here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOOAb7erAmE
Same with Aluminium and Aluminum too, aluminum was the original and the second i got added later on.
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Re: People using "Americanisms"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
But so means because, whereas Well indicates an answer to what was asked. As for 'nice' my understanding has always been that nice originally meant fine as in very slim, for example 'a nice distinction' between two points of view. But I believe that the word had several differing meanings.
'So' is also used as a discourse marker when summarising or changing the topic in a conversation or introducing a new one.
'Well' can be used similarly. You meet someone you haven't seen for a while and say "Hi John, Well how how you, old fruit?" just to convey emphasis. Or even "Well I'll be jiggered".
The fact that such constructions exist in many languages makes their usage of interest and maybe it's best to understand that usage rather than reverse-engineering it into strict grammatical categories that may have been foisted upon us in more prescriptive times.
There are so many so-called grammatical rules that we learned at school that have been subsequently debunked by linguistic experts and those who have studied language over the course of history.
This is an interesting read: http://www.dean.sbc.edu/tamburr.html