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Start by saying I'm not a political person, having said that Johnson is a walking nightmare, needs to go asap can't imagine how even the staunchest Tory supporter can think him saying is a good idea.
Starmer seems a very weak Labour leader, what's peoples take on Angela Rayner? she seems a very eloquent speaker.
Possible future pm?
I don't think so. She has the gift of the gab but scratch below the surface and there isn't much there. She's an attack dog politician which all parties need but she's a populist and would struggle to make the decisions needed. She also has Trumpy anger issues. Shoots from the hip etc
If Labour can accept Brexit then they potentially have my vote, but I don't think Rayner would
I voted for Rayner in the last leadership election. Starmer wasn't even my second choice. Since Starmer has been the leader I'm no longer a member of the Labour Party as I'm done with it after his purges.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I'll never vote for any party that supports Brexit. I'll never forgive having my European citizenship being stripped from me. I'll never support any party that doesn't support me or that makes my life worse.
If they support Brexit. What's the point of Labour?
Hear hear!Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
Not my type of leader Labours version of Nadine Dorries and liability .
There have been many good and capable females that Labour could have invested like Harriet Harman for some reason Labour is poor in this area .
Currently and back in the fold after the fall of Corbynism is the very capable Yvette Cooper who would make a wonderful leader, and would get my and many others vote in an election .
I also rate her husband ( I await the insults ) .
In this thread, we've heard JamesWales and LoM state they'd vote for Labour if either they supported Brexit (which the party now appears to do because they're spineless and gutless) or if old has-beens who had the chance to change things for the better when they were in power were leaders (even though one of them is retiring and the other's husband regularly got a kicking). I feel vindicated in my decision to leave the party.
There are many reasons why Labour and the left should support leaving the EU but fundementally Labour should support it because that's what the country voted for and we are a democracy. Just like the Tories came to accept devolution because that's what people voted for.
It's mad it's 2022 and people still can't accept it.
I voted Remain back in 2016 almost on a toss of a coin (the main reason being I couldn’t bring myself to vote for the same side as Nigel Farage) because I was one of not very many it seems who had no strong feelings either way. However, since then I’ve come around far more to the Remain camp and would be strongly behind them if there was another Referendum today. The thing is though, there isn’t going to be one any time soon is there and I don’t think there should be - my attitude from the day the result was announced has been it’s not what I wanted, but we need to get on with it and make the best we can of Brexit.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
What I would say though is that the likes of Farage and right wingers in the Conservative party were pushing for another ballot on membership of the EU for decades and eventually got their wish some forty odd years after we joined, so, unless the EU breaks up in the years to come, there are going to be a lot of Remainers who will be pushing for another vote on the grounds that if the Leave side managed to get one, why shouldn’t we? It’ll take some time (I’ll probably be long gone when it happens), but I think there will be another vote eventually and so there should be given the precedent set by David Cameron when he was PM.
Just for clarification purposes I would vote Labour if someone like Yvette Cooper was leading it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
I would also like Corbynism was removed.
On Brexit I just think they got their tactics wrong and that's what let the Tories in.
I voted to remain
If Brexit comes back and seeing how Europe has been behaved since our departure I vote to leave ,as it has exposed a few truths .
Did Labour voters vote to leave yes in their millions .
Did politicians of all parties try to overturn that democratic vote ( yes )
Voted Liberal in my last vote, as I could not vote for Corbyn or associate with its supporters ,tactics in fact I think it damaged the Labour party .
Would I vote Tory in the future potentially yes if their polices were correct .
Have I voted Labour yes more than any other party
Did I like Blairism yes , other than Iraq war
Would I vote blindly vote for Labour just because they are Labour ( no )
Do I like Labour currently in Wales no .
Do I like devolution no .
Do I like the UK as a whole yes .
I appreciate your clarification and I do think I've confused issues by posting about voting Labour and being a member of The Labour Party. As I said earlier, I didn't vote for Starmer as a leader when I was a member but I did vote for Rayner.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
For what it's worth, my main concerns re. Labour was after the last conference when the unions voted down the member's desire for electoral reform to be part of the next manifesto (and Starmer didn't back it), alongside the lack of progress in forming alliances with The Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru, The SNP and The Green Party in order to defeat the Tories.
For complete transparency, I'm currently a member of The Green Party and will also support Plaid Cymru (as these two parties are already working together in Cardiff - a sensible approach in my view).
It shouldn't make any difference to you if I or anyone else won't accept it. It's disingenuous to describe it as mad. Neither of us is going to budge on this. I accept that. I'll never accept the argument that we're a democracy either. We play at it. I'll never accept a campaign of lies. The list goes on. If I accept these then I'm a traitor to my beliefs. TOBW mentioned something that is often said that 'we should get on with it'. This would be great if I could get on with things as easy as they were and with less expense. I can't and nobody seems to be able to help with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Your description of Rayner is pretty decent, it also describes Boris Johnson although he's a lot more machiavellian.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
What's Johnson up to at the minute?
Oh yeah, a vote on rejoining the EU at some point in the future, maybe 20,30,40 years is perfectly valid. And no reason a party can't have that in s manifesto.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
But not wanting to implement the result from the 2016 referendum - that is not acceptable.
I consider this one the most disturbing comment pieces from a politician I have ever read. Nakedly proposing we ignore the referendum result, just days after it happened. This is the kind of thing I mean when I say Labour needs to move on.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-brexit-grave
No, I do think not accepting an election result is mad. Whether you storm the capitol in DC or spend hours on twitter six years on trying to deny it happened. It's futile madness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
We are a democracy too. Imperfect of course, but we are a democracy. A true democracy would have more referenda if anything, but if you don't accept the last big one we had, it seems curious to want more of it!
Sometimes we just have to accept things and move on. At the very very least I think people should present an optimistic and viable scenario to rejoining and the supposed benefits thereof, rather than looking back to 2016.
I agree, he is very Machiavellian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordi Culé
Some Tories didn't accept the Welsh devolution result and tried to vote it down.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Yeah, I addressed that earlier. And they were fools to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays
I really don’t get the view that people or a party should support something if the people vote for it. Just because (usually a minority of the actual population) they win a vote, you don’t abandon all your beliefs and change sides, it’s ludicrous to suggest that.
It was a referendum.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
25% of adult Welsh electorate voted for devolution. Think turnout was little more than 50%. Anyway, I doubt devolution is supported by 50% even now..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays
Good point and clearly evidenced by the way 'Abolish the Welsh Assembly' romped into power in the last Senedd elections.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
Wouldn't it be astonishing if less than 50% of the population did not believe they should run their own country?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
The figure in 2016 was 48% ;)