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Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
How does Scotland and N.Ire always seem to have more control than us? N.I didn't even have a functioning government a year or so ago.
Is it simply a case of asking Westminster for control and them constantly saying no? Surely there is precedent if one other country of the UK has control over it and another without requests it? £500m a year revenue is crazy and only looking likely to grow further.
https://www.thenational.wales/enviro...00-signatures/
https://www.change.org/p/welsh-secre...redirect=false
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
The short answer is that Scotland and N.Ireland already had notably different systems in place prior to 1997 so they inherited a more advanced set of powers post devolution.
It's basically one say traffic since then in terms of more and more powers being devolved from Westminster to Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast but Wales is still less far down that road and probably always will be.
The other element is that Wales & England are far more aligned economically in terms of cross-border travel etc which probably dampens the demand to do things differently all the time.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
maybe we are a passive, indifferent and/or gutless people.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
maybe we are a passive, indifferent and/or gutless people.
I have noticed Welsh people are generally very loyal people, almost to the point of being gutless so I have to agree with your comment. Having lived in Canada, Australia, NZ they all are very passionate about their own and the stuff they do well, Welsh are often dismissive and lacking in any belief of their own products, companies, culture. Wales has done a lot of for the world for the size/stature of the country but the lack of self belief in society is suffocating.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
maybe we are a passive, indifferent and/or gutless people.
This. Too many aspirational Tories. Too many royalists. Too many people afraid to do anything. Leaving the UK and joining the EU is a political and financial no-brainer. We'd have a say, and we'd get a TON of investment.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NYCBlue
This. Too many aspirational Tories. Too many royalists. Too many people afraid to do anything. Leaving the UK and joining the EU is a political and financial no-brainer. We'd have a say, and we'd get a TON of investment.
This 100%, completely agree. Agree with every single point, how a government can make another countries taxpayer pay for its own rail network is frankly absurd but people just accept it and complain we are too weak, poor etc. The furlough disaster in 2020 when Wales was rejected an extension only for it to be put in place a week later when England needed it showed exactly the pecking order of the UK, regardless if Wales pays in more/less tax, Wales should be able to access Welsh taxpayers funds, especially in the middle of a pandemic.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NYCBlue
This. Too many aspirational Tories. Too many royalists. Too many people afraid to do anything. Leaving the UK and joining the EU is a political and financial no-brainer. We'd have a say, and we'd get a TON of investment.
Well thats one take on it I suppose! I don't see how you can accuse Wales of having too many people afraid to do anything when we voted to leave the EU which quite clearly was quite a radical thing to do - and will result in a lot more powers for the senedd too as in devolved areas, Wales will gain what Brussels had. Farming for example.
As one of Western Europe's poorer areas we would get some EU invetsmebt but it would absolutely pale into insignificance compared to UK finding, which people never seem to mention btw.
Wales has public expenditure of 11,000 per head. England is £9,600. The sad reality is we spend far more than we earn, so leaving the UK and joining the EU absolutely would not deliver what you say and it most definitely is not a 'no brainer'
https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...-november-2020
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Well thats one take on it I suppose! I don't see how you can accuse Wales of having too many people afraid to do anything when we voted to leave the EU which quite clearly was quite a radical thing to do - and will result in a lot more powers for the senedd too as in devolved areas, Wales will gain what Brussels had. Farming for example.
As one of Western Europe's poorer areas we would get some EU invetsmebt but it would absolutely pale into insignificance compared to UK finding, which people never seem to mention btw.
Wales has public expenditure of 11,000 per head. England is £9,600. The sad reality is we spend far more than we earn, so leaving the UK and joining the EU absolutely would not deliver what you say and it most definitely is not a 'no brainer'
https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...-november-2020
Too much sense in this post
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Well thats one take on it I suppose! I don't see how you can accuse Wales of having too many people afraid to do anything when we voted to leave the EU which quite clearly was quite a radical thing to do - and will result in a lot more powers for the senedd too as in devolved areas, Wales will gain what Brussels had. Farming for example.
As one of Western Europe's poorer areas we would get some EU invetsmebt but it would absolutely pale into insignificance compared to UK finding, which people never seem to mention btw.
Wales has public expenditure of 11,000 per head. England is £9,600. The sad reality is we spend far more than we earn, so leaving the UK and joining the EU absolutely would not deliver what you say and it most definitely is not a 'no brainer'
https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...-november-2020
there's a difference between spending and investment.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
there's a difference between spending and investment.
Yes there is but if we lose billions in spending and investment and gain a few hundred million from the EU, whilst removing ourselves from the UK internal market, I would say the net result is likely to be negative.
I'm generally opposed to Independence but I am open minded on the pros and cons of it, but claiming it's a no brainer is not true at all. If it is a no brainer on anything it's that we would lose an enormous amount of support from being part of the UK.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Yes there is but if we lose billions in spending and investment and gain a few hundred million from the EU, whilst removing ourselves from the UK internal market, I would say the net result is likely to be negative.
I'm generally opposed to Independence but I am open minded on the pros and cons of it, but claiming it's a no brainer is not true at all. If it is a no brainer on anything it's that we would lose an enormous amount of support from being part of the UK.
the economic arguments against independence for Wales would have applied equally, if not more so to Ireland 100 years ago.
they were the poorest part of the UK, today they are richer than the UK.
if they had not become independent they would prit still be the poorest part of the UK.
the additional spend Wales gets compared to the rest of the UK is because we are older, poorer and in worse health. but none of that money is going to change that. only infrastructure and transformational spending will achieve that and Wales are always a forgotten child when it comes to that.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
the economic arguments against independence for Wales would have applied equally, if not more so to Ireland 100 years ago.
they were the poorest part of the UK, today they are richer than the UK.
if they had not become independent they would prit still be the poorest part of the UK.
Ireland's GDP is heavily misleading due it being something of a tax haven for large multinationals.
As a result of their inflated gdp they also have to make some of the highest contributions to the blocs budget.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
only infrastructure and transformational spending will achieve that and Wales are always a forgotten child when it comes to that.
It was the Assembly that decided there would no more new roads built. The road and rail systems in Wales needs to be massively overhauled, if we're ever to attract investment.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
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Originally Posted by
Trigger
Ireland's GDP is heavily misleading due it being something of a tax haven for large multinationals.
As a result of their inflated gdp they also have to make some of the highest contributions to the blocs budget.
GDP is slightly skewed but even without that it is definitely not the poor relation of the rest of the UK.
had it remained part of the UK I am absolutely convinced that it would be to this day.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
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Originally Posted by
Rjk
GDP is slightly skewed but even without that it is definitely not the poor relation of the rest of the UK.
had it remained part of the UK I am absolutely convinced that it would be to this day.
I totally agree.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
The United Kingdom is rotting from the southeast. The idea of a Kingdom is medieval let alone a united one. I'll never support a UK model of governance ever.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Devolution in my humble opinion is a waste of Welsh tax payers money that just creates another layer of bureaucracy and cost .
I can think of better ways of spending £58m each year , if they get they there way and add another 20 AM's with support costs it will rise again and only 46.6% of the population vote for the leaders we have ?
This article is from 2013
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...rs-13m-2224322
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
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Originally Posted by
Wozza16
This 100%, completely agree. Agree with every single point, how a government can make another countries taxpayer pay for its own rail network is frankly absurd but people just accept it and complain we are too weak, poor etc. The furlough disaster in 2020 when Wales was rejected an extension only for it to be put in place a week later when England needed it showed exactly the pecking order of the UK, regardless if Wales pays in more/less tax, Wales should be able to access Welsh taxpayers funds, especially in the middle of a pandemic.
Thinly veiled ‘I didn’t support Brexit’
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Devolution in my humble opinion is a waste of Welsh tax payers money that just creates another layer of bureaucracy and cost .
I can think of better ways of spending £58m each year , if they get they there way and add another 20 AM's with support costs it will rise again and only 46.6% of the population vote for the leaders we have ?
This article is from 2013
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...rs-13m-2224322
Creates another level of bureaucracy? Aren't you forgetting something? It replaces an incompetent one with a successful one.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Well thats one take on it I suppose!
I don't see how you can accuse Wales of having too many people afraid to do anything when we voted to leave the EU which quite clearly was quite a radical thing to do - and will result in a lot more powers for the senedd too as in devolved areas, Wales will gain what Brussels had. Farming for example.
As one of Western Europe's poorer areas we would get some EU invetsmebt but it would absolutely pale into insignificance compared to UK finding, which people never seem to mention btw.
Wales has public expenditure of 11,000 per head. England is £9,600. The sad reality is we spend far more than we earn, so leaving the UK and joining the EU absolutely would not deliver what you say and it most definitely is not a 'no brainer'
https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...-november-2020
This just supports my original argument. They just went along with what the English were doing. Scotland didn't.
As for public expenditure, of course it's higher in Wales than in England. England is where all the money is. If Wales became part of the world's second-largest GDP, expenditure becomes investment.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
the economic arguments against independence for Wales would have applied equally, if not more so to Ireland 100 years ago.
they were the poorest part of the UK, today they are richer than the UK.
if they had not become independent they would prit still be the poorest part of the UK.
the additional spend Wales gets compared to the rest of the UK is because we are older, poorer and in worse health. but none of that money is going to change that. only infrastructure and transformational spending will achieve that and Wales are always a forgotten child when it comes to that.
That is a valid point about Ireland. However it took Ireland about 80 years to overtake the UK. So maybe it will benefit out great great great grandkids.
I'm not anti devolution at all. I think English regions should get more powers too, but I think the economic arguments for independence are very weak. Whatever they are however, it most definitely is not a 'no brainer' in any direction of argument.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
That is a valid point about Ireland. However it took Ireland about 80 years to overtake the UK. So maybe it will benefit out great great great grandkids.
I'm not anti devolution at all. I think English regions should get more powers too, but I think the economic arguments for independence are very weak. Whatever they are however, it most definitely is not a 'no brainer' in any direction of argument.
yes it took 80 years to overtake the UK.
Wales has been a poor relation of England since it fell into English control what 7 or 8 hundred years ago. and it always will be.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
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Originally Posted by
Rjk
yes it took 80 years to overtake the UK.
Wales has been a poor relation of England since it fell into English control what 7 or 8 hundred years ago. and it always will be.
I don't believe it always will be. Would help if we didn't elect politicians who are happy with endless queues and a two lane motorway into our country of course.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I don't believe it always will be. Would help if we didn't elect politicians who are happy with endless queues and a two lane motorway into our country of course.
I'm sure the local politicians would love there to be no queues anywhere, but we only have a small amount of money available for infrastructure projects and solving the M4 congestion has a really poor payback.
London meanwhile runs multiple multi Billion pound projects concurrently
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I don't believe it always will be. Would help if we didn't elect politicians who are happy with endless queues and a two lane motorway into our country of course.
It's difficult to practice what you preach isn't it Mr. J? Acceptance is a bitch!:wink:
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
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Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
It's difficult to practice what you preach isn't it Mr. J? Acceptance is a bitch!:wink:
I fully accept it! I'm not trying to overturn the last senedd election result.
I do think we have had an elected government in Wales for 23 years though (and I've had many dealings with them) and they should take some responsibility for the state of Wales, both good and bad.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
That is a valid point about Ireland. However it took Ireland about 80 years to overtake the UK. So maybe it will benefit out great great great grandkids.
I'm not anti devolution at all. I think English regions should get more powers too, but I think the economic arguments for independence are very weak. Whatever they are however, it most definitely is not a 'no brainer' in any direction of argument.
80 years? Come off it. Fantasy again. Ireland joined the EU in 1974 I believe. There's a pretty decent case to be made that 1974 would be the date on which Ireland's economy started to speed up to eventually zoom past jolly old England's.
It seems a perfect role model for Wales. Facing an economic catastrophe conjoined with Brexit England versus independence within the EU is no dilemma. Choosing the latter is a no brainer.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Anti devolution/independence people say the Welsh economy is too weak, poor, lacking any meaningful industry to go it alone or have more devolution etc. If that is true then what the hell is the point of being in this 'great' union for the past 500 years?
Being in the UK has hardly got us into such a powerful and affluent position that we would be crazy to at least look and consider any other options. More devolution for me, to at least match Scotland and N.I, and urgently.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
80 years? Come off it. Fantasy again. Ireland joined the EU in 1974 I believe. There's a pretty decent case to be made that 1974 would be the date on which Ireland's economy started to speed up to eventually zoom past jolly old England's.
It seems a perfect role model for Wales. Facing an economic catastrophe conjoined with Brexit England versus independence within the EU is no dilemma. Choosing the latter is a no brainer.
You are a bizarre man a sometimes and a bit of a gaslighter tbh. How can you label what I said 'fantasy' when the Irish free state was created in 1922 and their GDP per capita overtook the UK in the mid 1990s? By almost any definition going what I said is correct.
And then you go on to use hyperbolic language like 'catastrophe' (with zero evidence) and present a solution that is a 'no brainer' as if there is universal agreement that Wales would be wealthier under independence, which there certainly isn't.
Mad.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
You are a bizarre man a sometimes and a bit of a gaslighter tbh. How can you label what I said 'fantasy' when the Irish free state was created in 1922 and their GDP per capita overtook the UK in the mid 1990s? By almost any definition going what I said is correct.
And then you go on to use hyperbolic language like 'catastrophe' (with zero evidence) and present a solution that is a 'no brainer' as if there is universal agreement that Wales would be wealthier under independence, which there certainly isn't.
Mad.
Out of interest, how much does the UK's superior GDP help Wales? You could also ask the same question of similar areas in England. Does the UK's large economy help all parts of the UK or does it mainly help those more affluent areas, rivers flowing into the sea etc.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Out of interest, how much does the UK's superior GDP help Wales? You could also ask the same question of similar areas in England. Does the UK's large economy help all parts of the UK or does it mainly help those more affluent areas, rivers flowing into the sea etc.
I dont subscribe to the idea that Wales should stay part of the UK because of the size of the British economy. I dont think that does any harm, but size of a country, or its economy doesnt necessarily mean it will be wealthy. In fact, there is almost no relationship to size at all, and countries like Estonia, Lithuania etc obviously flourished despite ceasing to be part of a much larger nation state. There's some complications now with the UK not being in the EU, as our economy is almost totally intertwined with Englands, but generally speaking I do not think Wales couldn't succeed because we are small
The UK however does have a much higher GDP per capita an that means that Wales is supported disproportionate to the amount we put in, and I think it's a huge risk to change that. Our GDP per capita is about a third of the UK average. Independence would bring about a huge funding gap in how services are provided. In time it would be overcome, but it's an enormous risk and what policies would we have to make us so appealing?
All that said, I recognise that being pretty much the poorest part of the UK is also an argument that could be used as a reason to leave, ie - 'what good has it done us?' etc.
I'm generally (and identity wise) against Independence, but I'm open minded on it, I just think the economic arguments are weak and need a lot of work. Certainly, it isn't a no brainer in any direction and no one should suggest it is.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
You are a bizarre man a sometimes and a bit of a gaslighter tbh. How can you label what I said 'fantasy' when the Irish free state was created in 1922 and their GDP per capita overtook the UK in the mid 1990s? By almost any definition going what I said is correct.
And then you go on to use hyperbolic language like 'catastrophe' (with zero evidence) and present a solution that is a 'no brainer' as if there is universal agreement that Wales would be wealthier under independence, which there certainly isn't.
Mad.
So you're saying as soon as Ireland became an independent state its growth rate immediately started to outpace England's. Perfect case for Wales to break free from the English Brexit Catastrophe.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I dont subscribe to the idea that Wales should stay part of the UK because of the size of the British economy. I dont think that does any harm, but size of a country, or its economy doesnt necessarily mean it will be wealthy. In fact, there is almost no relationship to size at all, and countries like Estonia, Lithuania etc obviously flourished despite ceasing to be part of a much larger nation state. There's some complications now with the UK not being in the EU, as our economy is almost totally intertwined with Englands, but generally speaking I do not think Wales couldn't succeed because we are small
The UK however does have a much higher GDP per capita an that means that Wales is supported disproportionate to the amount we put in, and I think it's a huge risk to change that. Our GDP per capita is about a third of the UK average. Independence would bring about a huge funding gap in how services are provided. In time it would be overcome, but it's an enormous risk and what policies would we have to make us so appealing?
All that said, I recognise that being pretty much the poorest part of the UK is also an argument that could be used as a reason to leave, ie - 'what good has it done us?' etc.
I'm generally (and identity wise) against Independence, but I'm open minded on it, I just think the economic arguments are weak and need a lot of work. Certainly, it isn't a no brainer in any direction and no one should suggest it is.
You really don't see the wood from the trees do you?
The UK, as its currently composed, has a huge issue with a SE finance sector-derived form of the Dutch Disease. It operates to severely disadvantage Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and indeed huge swathes of the North of England. An independent Wales trading within the EU would shed itself of this anchor.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
So you're saying as soon as Ireland became an independent state its growth rate immediately started to outpace England's. Perfect case for Wales to break free from the English Brexit Catastrophe.
No, thats not what I've said at all :facepalm:
I said it took (southern) Ireland 80 years to overtake the UK economically. Which, by almost any measurement, give or take a few years, is true. You said that was 'fantasy', but it isn't, it's the truth.
You sound more like a preacher predicting the end of the world. If you are going to label things 'catastrophic' you really should have evidence to back up such language, but you never present any.
You can think Cardiff are top of the league if you like, but the league table suggests otherwise.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
No, thats not what I've said at all :facepalm:
I said it took (southern) Ireland 80 years to overtake the UK economically. Which, by almost any measurement, give or take a few years, is true. You said that was 'fantasy', but it isn't, it's the truth.
You sound more like a preacher predicting the end of the world. If you are going to label things 'catastrophic' you really should have evidence to back up such language, but you never present any.
You can think Cardiff are top of the league if you like, but the league table suggests otherwise.
And if it had stayed in the UK it would have remained the poorest part of the UK.
So if it worked for Ireland, why could it not work for us?
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
You really don't see the wood from the trees do you?
The UK, as its currently composed, has a huge issue with a SE finance sector-derived form of the Dutch Disease. It operates to severely disadvantage Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and indeed huge swathes of the North of England. An independent Wales trading within the EU would shed itself of this anchor.
I wholly agree that the UK is too focused on the south east, and unlike most countries we dont have enough different power bases. That the UK is too focused on arguably the most successul city on earth (London & SE) doesnt mean that leaving the UK helps Wales though. It may mean we dont benefit from the fruits of that success.
Scotlands economy is nothing like Wales btw, and its GDP per capita is basically in line with the UK average and it's above most English regions.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ead-by-region/
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
And if it had stayed in the UK it would have remained the poorest part of the UK.
So if it worked for Ireland, why could it not work for us?
I never said it wouldn't. I said it took 80 years for Ireland, and for much of that time it was significantly poorer.
Independence may be good for Wales. I think it wouldn't, especially initially and I struggle to see evidence for that, but I recognise it could be. It's not me being absolute here. It's not me claiming these things are a no brainer.
The fundamental weaknesses in the Welsh economy are not caused by being part of the UK.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I wholly agree that the UK is too focused on the south east, and unlike most countries we dont have enough different power bases. That the UK is too focused on arguably the most successul city on earth (London & SE) doesnt mean that leaving the UK helps Wales though. It may mean we dont benefit from the fruits of that success.
Scotlands economy is nothing like Wales btw, and its GDP per capita is basically in line with the UK average and it's above most English regions.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ead-by-region/
Please do some research before posting if you want to be taken seriously. The Dutch Disease is a structural economy-wide problem not a problem associated with regional imbalance.
You really want to offer up Scotland as a counter argument? Did you know Scotland had a lot of oil and natural gas? I think you'll find most Scots think they got a very, very rough deal from the English with regards to the sharing of the benefits of Scotland's natural resources. The counterfactual is surely where would Scotland be now if it had fully the reaped the benefits of its own natural resources. "Norway", "sovereign wealth fund" - ring any bells.
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I never said it wouldn't. I said it took 80 years for Ireland, and for much of that time it was significantly poorer.
Independence may be good for Wales. I think it wouldn't, especially initially and I struggle to see evidence for that, but I recognise it could be. It's not me being absolute here. It's not me claiming these things are a no brainer.
The fundamental weaknesses in the Welsh economy are not caused by being part of the UK.
How exactly are you seeking evidence on the effects of an event that hasn't happened (Welsh independence)? Bonkers.
Conjecture, which you love btw, is not "evidence".
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Re: Devolution Wales v Scotland/NI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
How exactly are you seeking evidence on the effects of an event that hasn't happened (Welsh independence)? Bonkers.
Conjecture, which you love btw, is not "evidence".
Fair point. I struggle to see strong arguments for it, is what I should say.
The evidence is what you should be able to provide when you label things catastrophic..