There's a huge new migrant issue unfolding. So why isn't there any real debate about THIS one?

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

That DM article is as racist as they come (so are the BTL comments generally). It's dangerous, mean-spirited, mis-represented, selective, bigoted racism. Written by a white guy for other white guys.

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There you go.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

I thought you were more intelligent than this Mr J to even write that. That's low.

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It's you that labelled an article racist (if so, ring the police, or ring IPSO) it's you who said it's an article written by a white guy for white guys.

It's me who pointed out that it is EU immigration policy that specifically prioritises one group of people over another. Is that not the policy you support then?

People in glass houses and all that.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

If it's racist, there will be a police investigation. What you probably mean, is that the article disagrees with you. And so you label it racist because you know for a long time, you've been able to hide behind that to avoid addressing any of the issues.

What actually is more racist, is the immigration policy we have had for the last couple of decades, which explicitly gives advantages to people from an overwhelmingly white part of the world (within the EU), over those from an overwhelmingly non-white part of the world (the rest of it). That has changed now. Everyone is considered equally, whether from Netherlands or Nigeria.

No system is perfect, but in terms of racism, it is unquestionably the one you presumably support that is more racist.

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My understanding is we have lost 1.2 million people from the labour market since brexit - not solely as a result of brexit of course and that we now have more vacancies than job seekers and this is impacting the foundation economy ie the ability of health social care retail hospitality leisure etc to recruit more so than the higher level skill jobs although there is a sense that these are in short supply as well

Therefore we don't have enough workforce to go around and as a result the numbers of unpaid carers will grow for example as we can't provide state health and social care services which means they will need to rescue their participation in work to supplement care provided by the state

Part of the answer is to recruit from abroad but this market has shrunk since brexit and even though some of those foundation economy roles are on the shortage occcupationt list they don't meet the salary threshold to enter the country

We need reform in light of brexit and the pandemic to have a proportionate strategy to supply the country with a workforce it needs but we also need to value the lower paid roles more as a society and this may mean we either pay more tax or we redirect what we do pay to different areas to make these jobs more attractive and go beyond the real living wage that they are currently paid in some key worker sectors

Do I have confidence that we have leadership within the UK that gets it do I feck as in the main they are all self serving nose in the trough types of w33kers that are only concerned with personal wealth and their self preservation

Glover’s views are no more relevant than anybody else’s. He is just a right wing journo. We actually have labour shortages in this country. Still let’s blame immigrants because that’s what right wingers always do.

A shed load of people who write or reference articles from the daily mail are racist .

People I know , but do not associate with and read that paper are very right wing and suck up the extreme propaganda.....dressed up as reasoned debate .....which is designed to frighten people

No whilst I have no doubt that the majority of people on here can have a sensible chat I am afraid in the real world there are absolutely LOADS of people who might not like being labelled racists but that's exactly what they are .

Did Ron Liddle write for the Daily Mail ?

He should have done

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Originally Posted by RichardM

I thought the immigration was going to stop after Brexit when we regained control of the borders from the EU.

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Yeah .....do you think some people have been stung ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

A shed load of people who write or reference articles from the daily mail are racist .

People I know , but do not associate with and read that paper are very right wing and suck up the extreme propaganda.....dressed up as reasoned debate .....which is designed to frighten people

No whilst I have no doubt that the majority of people on here can have a sensible chat I am afraid in the real world there are absolutely LOADS of people who might not like being labelled racists but that's exactly what they are .

Did Ron Liddle write for the Daily Mail ?

He should have done

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Liddle is The Sun I think. Not that I read the rag.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Stephen Glover - super-qualified to write such crap.

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Evening Standard , Spectator , Daily Mail , Telegraph

Oh come on , he's not got a right wing agenda ! 🙄

If you post a link to the Daily Mail, you pretty much kill any desire for discourse. I didn't even click on the link.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

If you post a link to the Daily Mail, you pretty much kill any desire for discourse. I didn't even click on the link.

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Sensible post/advice. There's been a load of these types of threads lately. I was weak. You are an inspiration :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

If you post a link to the Daily Mail, you pretty much kill any desire for discourse. I didn't even click on the link.

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Personally I'll glance at all articles on my feed microsoft edge, which will be all papers, sky sports, BBC, all sorts mostly open sport, theres good and bad in all, but I like to have an open mind.

I don't agree with everyones point of view but i'll often read them and form my own opinion, which isn't as black and white as most peoples these days.

I thought the article was rambling but not racist. It seems to shout that all this noise about asylum seekers and Rwanda is drowning out the real issue but then gets scared of the audience and shouts that's really important as well.

Immigration was perhaps the major driver for many working class people who voted for Brexit. There was little discussion at the time that half the immigrants came from non-EU countries over which we had control of movement already. The article suggests that the overall net numbers have not shifted, just the balance of where these people came from.

I never got the sense that the libertarians driving Brexit worried too much about immigration. It was just a useful vehicle for their own ends. In other instances those from existing migrant communities may have voted to leave to increase the chances of people from their ancestoral homes coming to the UK.

I tried and failed to find details on where recent migrants have come from, though the article does explain that the expansion of student numbers is a major contributor. Slightly ironic in the week that Liz Truss is encouraging us all to wean ourselves off China that the ability of the Home Office to issue visas to Chinese students shows no sign of slowing.

How the Daily Mail starting to blow the horn on wider immigration will play with its readers will be interesting. They could ask for instance who has been in power whilst hordes of people have been "swamping" the country.

It will also be interesting to see when new post-Brexit trade deals come on stream how much easier it will be for people wanting to work and study in this country to be able to do so, further increasing numbers. Trade deals by their very nature (the EU one excepted) involve a loss of sovereignty as goods, capital, services and more pertinently, labour cross barriers more easily.

Not much discussion on whether all this migration benefits the UK at all, certainly not in the article itself, but I guess that's the nature of this particular beast.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

I thought the article was rambling but not racist. It seems to shout that all this noise about asylum seekers and Rwanda is drowning out the real issue but then gets scared of the audience and shouts that's really important as well.

Immigration was perhaps the major driver for many working class people who voted for Brexit. There was little discussion at the time that half the immigrants came from non-EU countries over which we had control of movement already. The article suggests that the overall net numbers have not shifted, just the balance of where these people came from.

I never got the sense that the libertarians driving Brexit worried too much about immigration. It was just a useful vehicle for their own ends. In other instances those from existing migrant communities may have voted to leave to increase the chances of people from their ancestoral homes coming to the UK.

I tried and failed to find details on where recent migrants have come from, though the article does explain that the expansion of student numbers is a major contributor. Slightly ironic in the week that Liz Truss is encouraging us all to wean ourselves off China that the ability of the Home Office to issue visas to Chinese students shows no sign of slowing.

How the Daily Mail starting to blow the horn on wider immigration will play with its readers will be interesting. They could ask for instance who has been in power whilst hordes of people have been "swamping" the country.

It will also be interesting to see when new post-Brexit trade deals come on stream how much easier it will be for people wanting to work and study in this country to be able to do so, further increasing numbers. Trade deals by their very nature (the EU one excepted) involve a loss of sovereignty as goods, capital, services and more pertinently, labour cross barriers more easily.

Not much discussion on whether all this migration benefits the UK at all, certainly not in the article itself, but I guess that's the nature of this particular beast.

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Balanced, fair and what I wish I had written. My deep loathing of the DM spilled over (just in case anybody hadn't noticed). JamesWales can still f*ck off though! At least until after lunch. :hehe:

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Originally Posted by RichardM

I thought the immigration was going to stop after Brexit when we regained control of the borders from the EU.

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It was because the EU never controlled our borders.

We were never in Schengen so even EU citizens had to show passports to get in. As for allowing non-EU citizens into the country, that has always been handled by the UK. The only difference is that EU citizens don't have the right to work here, neither do we have the automatic right to work in Europe.

Taking back control of our borders was another Brexit lie that lots stupidly believed.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

If you post a link to the Daily Mail, you pretty much kill any desire for discourse. I didn't even click on the link.

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We get a lot of this, but I don't agree with that mindset. How do you make sure you get a good cross section of opinions if you don't read them? How do you know what the article is about if you don't click on the link? How do you make sure you aren't in an echo chamber and that your arguments are capable of changing? If nothing else, how do you know how to win arguments against those who disagree if you don't read what they are reading? Who was it who said "Know your enemy"?

It's people like the OP that makes me want to avoid the internet and ccmb altogether. It just turns the whole experience of browsing a football forum into a test of your faith in humanity and unfortunately they are getting the better of me. It's enough that you have to put up with the gobby football types let alone put up with this crap too.

Ignore it ? Maybe. But there really should be better control over this sort of content. Shift it to the politics forum or even make a new forum for anything related to the daily mail or similar far right content so people like this can get a belly full without clogging up the main forum with useless shite.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

We get a lot of this, but I don't agree with that mindset. How do you make sure you get a good cross section of opinions if you don't read them? How do you know what the article is about if you don't click on the link? How do you make sure you aren't in an echo chamber and that your arguments are capable of changing? If nothing else, how do you know how to win arguments against those who disagree if you don't read what they are reading? Who was it who said "Know your enemy"?

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Rage Against The Machine

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Rage Against The Machine

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To ensure balance I make sure I listen to RATM and the Osmonds in equal measure.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

We get a lot of this, but I don't agree with that mindset. How do you make sure you get a good cross section of opinions if you don't read them? How do you know what the article is about if you don't click on the link? How do you make sure you aren't in an echo chamber and that your arguments are capable of changing? If nothing else, how do you know how to win arguments against those who disagree if you don't read what they are reading? Who was it who said "Know your enemy"?

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You are wasting you time trying to glean anything from the Daily Mail and trying to win arguments against people who read it. I mean that.

Have you ever gained any insights or had any success in either of these objectives?

Anyhow, you don't need read the Daily Mail to understand the basic mindset of someone who is xenophobic. They are scared of things they perceive as being different....in the best case scenario. Worst case, they are bullies and enjoy the power.

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Originally Posted by Divine Wright

You are wasting you time trying to glean anything from the Daily Mail and trying to win arguments against people who read it. I mean that.

Have you ever gained any insights or had any success in either of these objectives?

Anyhow, you don't need read the Daily Mail to understand the basic mindset of someone who is xenophobic. They are scared of things they perceive as being different....in the best case scenario. Worst case, they are bullies and enjoy the power.

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I find the most narrow minded people to be those who either only read the Daily Mail, or those who insist upon never reading it. Most balanced people will read things from across the spectrum.

There are some topics, certain newspapers will just never report on, and that polite society wish would go away, so it's important that others do.

More generally, the opinion pieces I take with a pinch of salt, and there's a clear agenda, but I do find they will illustrate articles better and dig into things a bit more thoroughly than some other newspapers or websites tbh.