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If it were not for Jesus I could not believe in God for the very reason you give. However we have been given free will and we can choose to follow Jesus and do good, or not, and do evil. So does this mean that God is responsible for all the shit that happens in the world?Originally Posted by TH63 wrote on Sat, 03 January 2015 23:29
Have a think about what happened at Christmas ten years ago and get back to me.I suspect God was missing from many of our festivities, in much the same way He went missing this time ten years ago.
I believe the Bible is 100% truth. Now some of the Bible text is plainly factual and some is poetical. Why, if something is poetical, might it not be truth too? I remember a good analogy of this I was told many years ago. There was a robbery in a bank and two robbers ran off down the street and jumped into a waiting car. 10 witnesses came forward to talk to the police and each one would give a truthful account of what they had seen. However there would be many differences between their accounts e.g. the colour/make/number plate of the getaway car, the description of the robbers and the description of the car driver.TBG you wrote: (I have copied the text as I cannot abide these massively long nested responses): I don't have to ask myself anything as it's all about your belief system. You totally believe in some things written in the Bible and and have doubts about others. If it's not all truth where do you draw the line? If you admit that some of the stories are 'poetic' (if you do not wish to use the word 'folklore') how do you know for sure what is fact and what is 'poetic'? What analysis do you adopt to separate one from another? My lay preacher friend has left many churches as he draws a different line in the sand regarding this matter to the incumbent preachers. What evidence is there that the universe was created in 6 days, for example? Isn't it true that believers differ as to what they believe is literal truth and what is allegory?
Was God to blame for that?I suspect God was missing from many of our festivities, in much the same way He went missing this time ten years ago.I say this as a Catholic, finding it increasingly difficult to reconcile all the shit He allows to happen in the world.
It is obvious from the above that poetic (when not referring to poetry itself) is not the same as 100% truth.TBG you wrote: (I have copied the text as I cannot abide these massively long nested responses): I don't have to ask myself anything as it's all about your belief system. You totally believe in some things written in the Bible and and have doubts about others. If it's not all truth where do you draw the line? If you admit that some of the stories are 'poetic' (if you do not wish to use the word 'folklore') how do you know for sure what is fact and what is 'poetic'? What analysis do you adopt to separate one from another? My lay preacher friend has left many churches as he draws a different line in the sand regarding this matter to the incumbent preachers. What evidence is there that the universe was created in 6 days, for example? Isn't it true that believers differ as to what they believe is literal truth and what is allegory?You may not recall from many of my previous posts on the various "God threads" but my starting point is always based on what Jesus said and did. Now that sounds like a cop-out I know, but to me Christianity is all about Christ, not what some ancient Jewish tribes got up to. Jesus himself said he brought a new covenant which means a new understanding of the relationship between God and mankind. If something was really important then I would expect Jesus to have had a say on it. Again, I know you will say that Jesus did not speak about quite a few things so it is dangerous to assume that because he didn't, then it wasn't relevant; I accept that. The gospel boils down to the two critical commandments that Jesus gave: firstly love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and secondly do to others as you would have them do to you. No allegory there!
Much of the New Testament are parables, used by Jesus as examples for the simple minded to understand His message.TBG you wrote: (I have copied the text as I cannot abide these massively long nested responses): I don't have to ask myself anything as it's all about your belief system. You totally believe in some things written in the Bible and and have doubts about others. If it's not all truth where do you draw the line? If you admit that some of the stories are 'poetic' (if you do not wish to use the word 'folklore') how do you know for sure what is fact and what is 'poetic'? What analysis do you adopt to separate one from another? My lay preacher friend has left many churches as he draws a different line in the sand regarding this matter to the incumbent preachers. What evidence is there that the universe was created in 6 days, for example? Isn't it true that believers differ as to what they believe is literal truth and what is allegory?You may not recall from many of my previous posts on the various "God threads" but my starting point is always based on what Jesus said and did. Now that sounds like a cop-out I know, but to me Christianity is all about Christ, not what some ancient Jewish tribes got up to. Jesus himself said he brought a new covenant which means a new understanding of the relationship between God and mankind. If something was really important then I would expect Jesus to have had a say on it. Again, I know you will say that Jesus did not speak about quite a few things so it is dangerous to assume that because he didn't, then it wasn't relevant; I accept that. The gospel boils down to the two critical commandments that Jesus gave: firstly love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, and secondly do to others as you would have them do to you. No allegory there!
The only time everyone will live in peace with one another is when religion as a whole is eradicated.
Yes of course different believers draw different conclusions from various parts of the Bible. I find this very sad especially when churches split apart as a result. However I fail to see how they could draw different conclusions from the two commandments given by Jesus which as I have said are at the core of the gospel.
You seem to be quite a tetchy person. I was in no way trying to deride your lay-preacher friend and yet you immediately go into personal attack mode. He may indeed be a lot brighter than me and having known you for five years I'm sure he has no need to try to second-guess what you are actually saying.
I think I have answered all your questions to the best of my ability/understanding but as I sense you are not comfortable dealing with someone of lesser intellect I think it's time to draw a line under this now, before it descends into a slanging match.
If different believers 'draw different conclusions from various parts of the Bible' (your words not mine) how can it all be 100% truth?
The Wise Men arrived with gifts on 6th January, the feast of the Epiphany ( 12th night)
Thou shalt not bear false witness....In reply to the above comment:
What I can never understand and never will, is how people put such unquestionable faith into a religion. The Scientific advances we've in the last 100 years or so are truly incredible and its all there for all to read, shame people insist on fables. Science made planes fly, religion flies them into buildings.
The Old Testament is full of fables, and Christ as a revolutionary of his time did much to question the established religion. His works are well represented in the New Testament, and are certainly not fables.
The theory of Gravity has been tested by scientific experiments by many people around the globe, by the way. It is understood well enough to use it as a slingshot from one celestial body to another. Unlike much of what is stated in so-called Holy Books.What I can never understand and never will, is how people put such unquestionable faith into a religion. The Scientific advances we've in the last 100 years or so are truly incredible and its all there for all to read, shame people insist on fables. Science made planes fly, religion flies them into buildings.
Science has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with empirical evidence. You cant mix faith with fact. What is a fact that nearly every molecule that make you was produced in a super novas billions of years ago. That fact is based on fact not faith and highlights my initial point.What I can never understand and never will, is how people put such unquestionable faith into a religion. The Scientific advances we've in the last 100 years or so are truly incredible and its all there for all to read, shame people insist on fables. Science made planes fly, religion flies them into buildings.
Christians - Was Jesus in your Christmas celebrations? If so, why do you care whether or not he was in the celebrations of people you have never and will never meet?
As for believers identifying some things as literal and other things as allegorical ('the Pick'n'Mixers' as my preacher friends call them) it then becomes totally arbitrary. That's why religion is associated with schism upon schism and why Abrahamism is so incredibly fractured. The Jews have their version of truth and the Christians add a layer. The Muslims added another layer, as did the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses. It's fable upon fable.What I can never understand and never will, is how people put such unquestionable faith into a religion. The Scientific advances we've in the last 100 years or so are truly incredible and its all there for all to read, shame people insist on fables. Science made planes fly, religion flies them into buildings.We do it in the same way that you put faith into the fact that gravity will keep your feet on the ground, and that the sun will rise and set each day.
Are you referring to Pascal's Wager?Thank you for a straightforward response.You're welcome. But I don't expect or necessarily want people to believe the same things that I do.I don't EXPECT them to either; but I would WANT them to, because the world would be a heck of a better place if everyone followed Jesus (or even the Jesus way if they cannot accept his divinity).
If we hadn't bumped him off, the prophesies of Isaiah would not have been materialised and Jesus would not have the Messiah. You seem to want it all ways.What do you mean by "he keeps failing to do"?Well, the very first two people he created disobeyed him, so he expelled them from Eden. Then things got worse, so he eradicated all of the animal kingdom except for those who would fit on the Ark, then it all went wrong again and he had to put himself on Earth, born of a virgin, in order to redeem mankind and he failed once again because here we all are and the world is in a terrible state again.
I wish these threads would not be suddenly ignored by people who were so keen to contribute in the early stages.What do you mean by "he keeps failing to do"?Well, the very first two people he created disobeyed him, so he expelled them from Eden. Then things got worse, so he eradicated all of the animal kingdom except for those who would fit on the Ark, then it all went wrong again and he had to put himself on Earth, born of a virgin, in order to redeem mankind and he failed once again because here we all are and the world is in a terrible state again.God didn't fail - we did!! We had a second chance when Jesus came to show the way and we promptly bumped him off. Like a lot of things in life, we get what we deserve.
As it has been said: Christianity has not been tried and found to be wanting, it has been tried and found to be too difficult. (What do you mean by "he keeps failing to do"?Well, the very first two people he created disobeyed him, so he expelled them from Eden. Then things got worse, so he eradicated all of the animal kingdom except for those who would fit on the Ark, then it all went wrong again and he had to put himself on Earth, born of a virgin, in order to redeem mankind and he failed once again because here we all are and the world is in a terrible state again.God didn't fail - we did!! We had a second chance when Jesus came to show the way and we promptly bumped him off. Like a lot of things in life, we get what we deserve.If we hadn't bumped him off, the prophesies of Isaiah would not have been materialised and Jesus would not have the Messiah. You seem to want it all ways.
There is one major plot hole in the Jesus resurrection story if you assume it's a real event.
All these people saying they seen Jesus walking about after crucifixion and the Romans didn't do anything.
They didn't even question those claiming to have seen Jesus, didn't check the tomb, didn't perform a manhunt for him...NOTHING.
A person the Romans just crucified is seen walking about as if nothing happened and the Romans did nothing.
PLOT HOLE.
I think you may have just unearthed the beginning of Catholicism
Thank you for a straightforward response.You're welcome. But I don't expect or necessarily want people to believe the same things that I do.I don't EXPECT them to either; but I would WANT them to, because the world would be a heck of a better place if everyone followed Jesus (or even the Jesus way if they cannot accept his divinity).
Always preferred Austin 3:16 myself
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