"Conservatism has gone rogue and lost touch with the rest of us"

[TruBlue]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

OK, would you class the current government as right wing?

[archibald leitch]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

yes.

[Feedback]

You really have a puddled view of the world. There are many aspects of right wing philosophy and not everything revolves around wealth. You may like to think your are a caring individual but it comes across that you have contempt for those who don't share your opinions.

There are lots of people who have differing opinions to me that i have a lot of time and respect for. One of my best freinds likes country and western.

You really do make sweeping generalisations and your posts are riddled with dogma and hyperbole. There is very little in the way of constructive analysis and in that respect your as guilty as Croesyblue for following an ideology without question.

[TruBlue]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

Would you say the current rise in the income tax threshold was about the "people"?

[Kiffa]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

Would you say increasing the income tax threshold minimally while giving millionaires a 45,000 tax break is favouring the better off or the worse off?

[Feedback]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

Add to that raising the minimum wage above the rate of inflation, something never done under the previous administration.

[TruBlue]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

My own opinions are that I believe in the individual having more responsibility for themselves than the government, whilst still knowing we have a collective responsibility to society. Hence why I think Archies generalisation is wrong and quite clearly not as black and white as he is suggesting.

[archibald leitch]

You really have a puddled view of the world. There are many aspects of right wing philosophy and not everything revolves around wealth. You may like to think your are a caring individual but it comes across that you have contempt for those who don't share your opinions.

There are lots of people who have differing opinions to me that i have a lot of time and respect for. One of my best freinds likes country and western.

I will admit, however, that i have contempt for people who wish to perpetuate inequality and those that pedal hate for others. I am not ashamed to admit this.

I am willing to debate this, but if you are going to go off on one of your usual rants where you argue black is white just for the sake of it, count me out.

[Feedback]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

Just to put it into context, do you think someone who earns a million a year and pays 450k in tax rather than 500k is not contributing enough? Clearly they are contributing considerably more than the rest of us.

[TruBlue]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

Another policy about the "people". Well spotted.

[Elysium]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

Could you remind me what the higher tax rate was for the majority of the last Labour administration?

[archibald leitch]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

If they were serious about helping those people on low wages they would raise the minimum wage to at least the living wage. They would stop cutting away at legislation that protects working people in the workplace. They would tackle the issue of zero hours contracts. They would make a concerted effort to deal with the wealthy tax dodgers and would spend the tax on public services that the people on lower incomes rely on. .

[Feedback]

You really have a puddled view of the world. There are many aspects of right wing philosophy and not everything revolves around wealth. You may like to think your are a caring individual but it comes across that you have contempt for those who don't share your opinions.

There are lots of people who have differing opinions to me that i have a lot of time and respect for. One of my best freinds likes country and western.

I will admit, however, that i have contempt for people who wish to perpetuate inequality and those that pedal hate for others. I am not ashamed to admit this.

I also reckon a lot of conservative supporters wish to see social justice too, they just go about it a different way. One of the underlying principles of conservatism is your responsibility to others. You seemingly confuse conservatism with thatcherism, which is more of a classical liberal ideology rather than traditional conservative ideology.

As for thatcher, I most certainly didn't say she was a liberal, I said she was a classical liberal, the two are very different.

[Feedback]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

Agreed about the minimum wage but as I've already pointed out this government has raises the minimum wage above the rate of inflation - something that has never been done before

[TruBlue]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

Being business friendly doesn't doesn't equate to being people unfriendly as you are suggesting.

[archibald leitch]

You really have a puddled view of the world. There are many aspects of right wing philosophy and not everything revolves around wealth. You may like to think your are a caring individual but it comes across that you have contempt for those who don't share your opinions.

There are lots of people who have differing opinions to me that i have a lot of time and respect for. One of my best freinds likes country and western.

I will admit, however, that i have contempt for people who wish to perpetuate inequality and those that pedal hate for others. I am not ashamed to admit this.

I also reckon a lot of conservative supporters wish to see social justice too, they just go about it a different way. One of the underlying principles of conservatism is your responsibility to others. You seemingly confuse conservatism with thatcherism, which is more of a classical liberal ideology rather than traditional conservative ideology.

You really do make sweeping generalisations and your posts are riddled with dogma and hyperbole. There is very little in the way of constructive analysis and in that respect your as guilty as Croesyblue for following an ideology without question.

Thatcher was a neo-liberal. To suggest otherwise is bonkers. Yes, that is abuse, but there is no point trying to debate the matter if you are going to start denying unassailable facts. You are an inteligent bloke, so you can only be taking that position for a laugh.

[archibald leitch]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

I am always keen to learn. Can you give me an example of a right wing policy that puts people before profit?

If a business can only make a profit by exploiting people and paying them a pittance, i have no issues with that business closing down.

[Feedback]

You accuse me of going on rants when I'm doing no such thing. That is why I think your tone is less than cordial. All I have done is question your interpretation and nothing more. I'm not advocating the conservatives - there are certain policies of theirs I think are plainly wrong.

Thatcher was free market and laissez faire - both classical liberal ideas vis a vis Edward Burke. You may call it neo liberalism and if that suits you then so be it, but these ideas were fermented with the rise of Mercantilism in the 18th century And that is why it is referred to as classical Liberalism.

you've also gone off on a tangent with respect to family values. They are inherent in conservative ideology and it's part of the make up of conservatism. You also refer to dog eat dog and social Darwin ism but that once again is your blind ideology talking, its a conditioned response and is very pavlovIian.

[Feedback]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

I am always keen to learn. Can you give me an example of a right wing policy that puts people before profit?

OK, would you class the current government as right wing?

You really are blinkered, you have a lot to say about business despite having worked most of your life for the state. You're not really qualified to talk about business practice or how all businesses treat workers.

[archibald leitch]

You accuse me of going on rants when I'm doing no such thing. That is why I think your tone is less than cordial. All I have done is question your interpretation and nothing more. I'm not advocating the conservatives - there are certain policies of theirs I think are plainly wrong.

I have better things to do than deal with your trolling.

[TruBlue]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

I am always keen to learn. Can you give me an example of a right wing policy that puts people before profit?

OK, would you class the current government as right wing?

There was a bloke on Welsh news from Barry the other day who run a cafe, it was the bloke who used to run the 1927 cafe in Canton. He was saying that wages going up to £8 per hour would be critical for his business and he'd pretty much have to close down. I know the bloke from football years ago. Him and his wife live in a housing association house so certainly not wealthy, but you would like to pretty much put him, his wife and his employees out of work. That's hardly putting the people first.

[Feedback]

You accuse me of going on rants when I'm doing no such thing. That is why I think your tone is less than cordial. All I have done is question your interpretation and nothing more. I'm not advocating the conservatives - there are certain policies of theirs I think are plainly wrong.

Thatcher was free market and laissez faire - both classical liberal ideas vis a vis Edward Burke. You may call it neo liberalism and if that suits you then so be it, but these ideas were fermented with the rise of Mercantilism in the 18th century And that is why it is referred to as classical Liberalism.

I've already said you can call it neo liberalism if that's what you prefer but that will not change the fact that the classical liberals such as Burke came up with the policies of laissez faire and the free market in the 18th century. These policies were a central tenet of thatcherism.

[archibald leitch]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

I am always keen to learn. Can you give me an example of a right wing policy that puts people before profit?

OK, would you class the current government as right wing?

yes.

Having been involved in the trade union movement for a very long time i am probably better qualifed to discuss the way companies trat employees than you.

[Feedback]

I am not denying my personal values, which are a mix of centre, right and left, I am challenging your claim that right wingers are ashamed of their views.

So you accept that people with right wing tendacies put profit before people, the market before society, are opposed to equality and wish to maintain a hierarchical system?

Non sequitur. you will have to explain how me saying that I don't think right wingers are ashamed of their views means that I accept they put profit first etc

It is quite simple.

Right wingers put profit before people.

If right wingers do not accept that, they are in denial of their own values.

If they are in denial, the most obvious reason is they accept that it is not socially acceptable to have those views and are trying to hide them - because they are ashamed. There may, of course, be another reason for denying their own values, but i cannot think of one.

It quite clearly isn't by having a total lack of understanding of it.

I am always keen to learn. Can you give me an example of a right wing policy that puts people before profit?

OK, would you class the current government as right wing?

yes.

Archibald leitch gives the impression he thinks all business owners are raking it in and the workers are fed scraps. Whilst I'm sure there are businesses out there, my experience is the earnings gap between owner and worker isn't that great.

[TruBlue]

You really have a puddled view of the world. There are many aspects of right wing philosophy and not everything revolves around wealth. You may like to think your are a caring individual but it comes across that you have contempt for those who don't share your opinions.

There are lots of people who have differing opinions to me that i have a lot of time and respect for. One of my best freinds likes country and western.

I will admit, however, that i have contempt for people who wish to perpetuate inequality and those that pedal hate for others. I am not ashamed to admit this.

I also reckon a lot of conservative supporters wish to see social justice too, they just go about it a different way. One of the underlying principles of conservatism is your responsibility to others. You seemingly confuse conservatism with thatcherism, which is more of a classical liberal ideology rather than traditional conservative ideology.

You really do make sweeping generalisations and your posts are riddled with dogma and hyperbole. There is very little in the way of constructive analysis and in that respect your as guilty as Croesyblue for following an ideology without question.

If Conservative supporters believe in social justice, they need to vote for an other party in future. Cos they wont get any of that from the Tory Party. They will get things like the bedroom tax, the roll out of zero hours contracts, the privatisation of public services to allow people (mostly ther mates and in some cases even cabinet members)to make a profit from them, they will get the undermining of the rights of workers to justice in the workplace, they will get cutting back of legislation designed to protect the safety of workers, they will get the closing down of public services, they will get a massive increase in foodbanks.

This would be a thread on it's own, but I'm interested to hear you elaborate on that comment. Not trying to catch you out or anything just curious what it is you don't like?