Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious

[jon1959]

I am an atheist, but I grew up in a family and culture of non-conformist Christianity and I think the distinction made by Gofer is very interesting. Most of my family who continue to think of themselves as Christian (although they are dying out) just follow the customs and conventions put in front of them - and like the comfort of familiar rituals and settings. They just happened to be born in a time and place where that was accepted (often unquestioned) as the norm.

But my dad, now dead, was a free thinker and described himself as a secular Christian, and he and the like-minded group he was part of as 'the heretics'. He had no time for religion but chose to believe in the values and morals that he took from the life of Jesus as described in the Bible. I don't think he believed in heaven or hell, or God or the devil. He did see the bible as a series of fables and metaphors - some of which (New Testament) offered a guide to living a 'good life'. He definitely saw religions (all religions) as human constructs that evolved over time and had little to do with faith or moral codes. He saw them as organisations (and cultures) that operate like corporations for controlling people with The Pope or the Archbishop Of Canterbury as CEOs of Christianity plc.

We had endless arguments about this stuff and never agreed - except maybe about the historical role of organised religion.

[AfricanBluebird]

Super post Gofer Blue.. and Jon Candy.

Gofer Blue - Hope you are well.

I flip flop about 'church' all the time. I see the good, bad and the ugly.

Having seen, and continue to see, absolute nonsense and damage from the evangelical conservative church (all over the world) - I have long since rejected such institutions. They are ill informed, hateful, poisonous and Theologically wrong on every level. I think Conservative evangelical Christianity is one of the biggest threats to society and the church itself.

I can see the 'benefit' of more organised forms of Christianity where at least some of the leaders are trained and have a better understanding of the scriptures - CoE and Catholic church... but then again I contend with a Catholic Church who allowed Priests to abuse children.

I am friends with some Jesuit Priests, who I find inspirational. They do often the shitty work of the Catholic Church. I worked with them and they agreed that ANY abuse by Catholic leaders should be reported to the authorities - whereas the traditional Catholic way was to deal with it internally - which is illegal and a code for 'covering up'. So I do have a lot of respect for Jesuits... far more than these ill informed and theologically wrong 'born again' types.

Bottom line is I am equally as comfortable and uncomfortable in any church environment.

In terms of your point... IF indeed the country is becoming 'Anti-Christian' - I would propose that it is not actually Jesus that people have an issue with but the behaviour, attitude and grifting of the 'Church' and religious folk. I don't think many people particularly have a problem with the likes of you and I who would define ourselves as 'Christians'... most people wouldn't care if we believe that Darth Vader is Lord and Saviour.... but people do care that the church is hateful, spiteful, grifting and trying to control peoples own lives and decisions. Which I completely agree with them on.

As an aside I was at a quiz night in a team with 4 Jesuits Priests. Can you imagine we lost out by winning the quiz by one point - the Priests knew that the 2012 fourth studio album by Taylor Swift was called 'Red', and yet answered wrongly what the middle chapter of the Bible is (Psalm 117).

[Gofer Blue]

Super post Gofer Blue.. and Jon Candy.

Gofer Blue - Hope you are well.

I flip flop about 'church' all the time. I see the good, bad and the ugly.

Having seen, and continue to see, absolute nonsense and damage from the evangelical conservative church (all over the world) - I have long since rejected such institutions. They are ill informed, hateful, poisonous and Theologically wrong on every level. I think Conservative evangelical Christianity is one of the biggest threats to society and the church itself.

I can see the 'benefit' of more organised forms of Christianity where at least some of the leaders are trained and have a better understanding of the scriptures - CoE and Catholic church... but then again I contend with a Catholic Church who allowed Priests to abuse children.

I am friends with some Jesuit Priests, who I find inspirational. They do often the shitty work of the Catholic Church. I worked with them and they agreed that ANY abuse by Catholic leaders should be reported to the authorities - whereas the traditional Catholic way was to deal with it internally - which is illegal and a code for 'covering up'. So I do have a lot of respect for Jesuits... far more than these ill informed and theologically wrong 'born again' types.

Bottom line is I am equally as comfortable and uncomfortable in any church environment.

In terms of your point... IF indeed the country is becoming 'Anti-Christian' - I would propose that it is not actually Jesus that people have an issue with but the behaviour, attitude and grifting of the 'Church' and religious folk. I don't think many people particularly have a problem with the likes of you and I who would define ourselves as 'Christians'... most people wouldn't care if we believe that Darth Vader is Lord and Saviour.... but people do care that the church is hateful, spiteful, grifting and trying to control peoples own lives and decisions. Which I completely agree with them on.

As an aside I was at a quiz night in a team with 4 Jesuits Priests. Can you imagine we lost out by winning the quiz by one point - the Priests knew that the 2012 fourth studio album by Taylor Swift was called 'Red', and yet answered wrongly what the middle chapter of the Bible is (Psalm 117).

Hi African Bluebird - all ok here thanks. Are you still in Uganda these days? I haven't been back there for many years now (15 or so?) but still supporting those who are where I can. It is so sad that the actions of a few have tainted the reputation of the thousands of Catholic workers who are working at the "coal face" in some of the poorest places on the planet. I think have gone full circle where my faith is concerned. It really is quite straightforward and yet very easy to get bogged down with theological "stuff" hence am really enjoying being part of a house church rather than a "church" per se - back to the Acts of Apostles days almost! All the best - keep the faith!!

[AfricanBluebird]

I am an atheist, but I grew up in a family and culture of non-conformist Christianity and I think the distinction made by Gofer is very interesting. Most of my family who continue to think of themselves as Christian (although they are dying out) just follow the customs and conventions put in front of them - and like the comfort of familiar rituals and settings. They just happened to be born in a time and place where that was accepted (often unquestioned) as the norm.

But my dad, now dead, was a free thinker and described himself as a secular Christian, and he and the like-minded group he was part of as 'the heretics'. He had no time for religion but chose to believe in the values and morals that he took from the life of Jesus as described in the Bible. I don't think he believed in heaven or hell, or God or the devil. He did see the bible as a series of fables and metaphors - some of which (New Testament) offered a guide to living a 'good life'. He definitely saw religions (all religions) as human constructs that evolved over time and had little to do with faith or moral codes. He saw them as organisations (and cultures) that operate like corporations for controlling people with The Pope or the Archbishop Of Canterbury as CEOs of Christianity plc.

We had endless arguments about this stuff and never agreed - except maybe about the historical role of organised religion.

Jon, I like the way your dad described himself! I would probably call myself a 'Christian who doesn't care much for Christianity'.

I think that Christianity has become polarised, sadly.

If you think back to some of the great Christian minds of 100 years ago or so... Tolkien and CS Lewis etc... they used to sit, debate, argue and consider the world, universe, God etc over a pipe and a pint. They never fell out but disagreed a lot - this is a trait much missing from today. They would then use their 'art' to explore these issues - their doubts, concerns, weaknesses and ultimately joy. C S Lewis wrote about the death of his wife is brutally honest terms. Tolkien explored questioning the existence of God and good and evil, in light of the first world war through Lord of the Rings... how can God exist when so many bad things happen to innocent people.

Really meaty stuff.

We have lost that, sadly.

[jon1959]

Jon, I like the way your dad described himself! I would probably call myself a 'Christian who doesn't care much for Christianity'.

I think that Christianity has become polarised, sadly.

If you think back to some of the great Christian minds of 100 years ago or so... Tolkien and CS Lewis etc... they used to sit, debate, argue and consider the world, universe, God etc over a pipe and a pint. They never fell out but disagreed a lot - this is a trait much missing from today. They would then use their 'art' to explore these issues - their doubts, concerns, weaknesses and ultimately joy. C S Lewis wrote about the death of his wife is brutally honest terms. Tolkien explored questioning the existence of God and good and evil, in light of the first world war through Lord of the Rings... how can God exist when so many bad things happen to innocent people.

Really meaty stuff.

We have lost that, sadly.

It is meaty stuff. I should have said that my dad continued to attend church services and church discussion groups all his life - despite his opinion about organised religion. His interest in theology led to him studying philosophy in later life and he would jump around from Christian thinkers, some Islamic writers, the ancient Greeks, John Locke to modern philosophers and treat them all the same.

I rejected religion and faith very young. I then tried to work out what is the 'meaning of life' (Monty Python's take is as good as any) and concluded there is no meaning. We are just here and need to work things out for ourselves. That then led me to a social and political framework for changing the world (power structures and belief systems) so it gives as many people as possible a quality and purpose to life. Teenage idealism that has stuck for a lifetime.

(PS - I'm not Jon Candy. My photos aren't that good!)

[AfricanBluebird]

It is meaty stuff. I should have said that my dad continued to attend church services and church discussion groups all his life - despite his opinion about organised religion. His interest in theology led to him studying philosophy in later life and he would jump around from Christian thinkers, some Islamic writers, the ancient Greeks, John Locke to modern philosophers and treat them all the same.

I rejected religion and faith very young. I then tried to work out what is the 'meaning of life' (Monty Python's take is as good as any) and concluded there is no meaning. We are just here and need to work things out for ourselves. That then led me to a social and political framework for changing the world (power structures and belief systems) so it gives as many people as possible a quality and purpose to life. Teenage idealism that has stuck for a lifetime.

(PS - I'm not Jon Candy. My photos aren't that good!)

Ah apologies to you and Mr Candy.

I hang out with such a wide range of people.. atheists, nominal Christians, Catholics, born agains, Muslims, Seiks, Hindus and Jewish people.

Because I have a relationship with them its easy challenge each other and learn from each other.

The problem, as I see it, is that everyone has strong opinions and want to force everyone to believe the same as them... but without respect and relationship, that is quite impossible.

Look at Dawkins... brilliant scientist (especially with anything to do with the eyes) but has become completely toxic and boring. Likewise many religious people are stuck in the dark ages and lost the ability to self doubt, consider and talk through issues without getting judgemental and upset.

I have no problem people thinking my belief in God is nonsense... it is nuts really - the idea of a world outside of ours... something universal and intelligent and spiritual - it goes against the logic and reason we see in front of us... and I will never ever try and convince people there is a God but I do enjoy debating it.

That's why I like this board - mostly respectful and some really intelligent discussions.

[truthpaste]

Jon, I like the way your dad described himself! I would probably call myself a 'Christian who doesn't care much for Christianity'.

I think that Christianity has become polarised, sadly.

If you think back to some of the great Christian minds of 100 years ago or so... Tolkien and CS Lewis etc... they used to sit, debate, argue and consider the world, universe, God etc over a pipe and a pint. They never fell out but disagreed a lot - this is a trait much missing from today. They would then use their 'art' to explore these issues - their doubts, concerns, weaknesses and ultimately joy. C S Lewis wrote about the death of his wife is brutally honest terms. Tolkien explored questioning the existence of God and good and evil, in light of the first world war through Lord of the Rings... how can God exist when so many bad things happen to innocent people.

Really meaty stuff.

We have lost that, sadly.

Yes I agree with much of what you say. However do you think it's possible that people still want answers to the big questions of life but:-

1. Organised religion puts them off from connecting with those they could chat with concerning these things?
2. People these days are too quick to pigeonhole and dismiss everyone which means they end up missing the opportunities for dialogue that you mentioned above re Tolkien and CS Lewis?
3. We've now been conditioned via the media, entertainment and the culture in general to snap at anyone who mentions the Bible but buy a coffee or lunch for anyone who studies philosophy?