Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious

[Dorcus]

I think it should be possible for us as a society to achieve both shops being open on a Sunday and giving workers a better work life balance

Totally agree! I think it selfish for some people to want only this "landscape of peace and tranquility" on a Sunday. Many people suffering from depression, particularly those living alone, are badly affected by the loneliness a Sunday can effect. For some people the hustle and bustle of shopping would be a "Godsend" (please excuse the pun). Anyway, is it really so heinous for people to want to shop for food in a supermarket after 4 pm on a Sunday?

By the way if someone does want a Sunday off, what's stopping us giving a couple of quid to those poor people on the sole to work every Sunday as cover? Nature offers us many solutions if we are prepared to be broad-minded.

[Canton Kev]

Indeed, and the RCC and other man-made Religions have done their best, but true Christianity remains and it is growing rapidly when you look at the bigger picture worldwide. It will continue to do so, despite nations like ours doing their best to stamp it out.

* As for the atheist, this is NOT a person of no faith, but an individual with more faith than any Christian (see below):-
LeeStr.jpg

Got a source for Christianity “growing rapidly” worldwide?

It’s in decline in Europe and North and South America and the largest growing populations, India and China, have very few Christians to begin with.

[Dorcus]

Got a source for Christianity “growing rapidly” worldwide?

It’s in decline in Europe and North and South America and the largest growing populations, India and China, have very few Christians to begin with.

"Atheists have more faith than Christians"...no Strobel you nerd, Atheists are not so intellectually challenged and are open to there being a higher truth set than we can conceive of given our narrow frame of reference. Therefore there may always be the possibility of "something emerging from nothing'. Otherwise if that were not true people like Strobel are insinuating that God must have had a prior causal agency! In which case was there Proto God, and who came before him or her ad nausium?

[Baloo]

Got a source for Christianity “growing rapidly” worldwide?

It’s in decline in Europe and North and South America and the largest growing populations, India and China, have very few Christians to begin with.

Growing rapidly in Africa. It’s been in long decline in the UK.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Growing rapidly in Africa. It’s been in long decline in the UK.

Before white missionaries , many of them very dodgy , spread the word much of Africa was doing fine

As was South America before the Spanish turned up

Bloody nonsense all of it

[Canton Kev]

Growing rapidly in Africa. It’s been in long decline in the UK.

Islam is growing quickest of the 2 major religions in Africa. I’m still not sure if the increasing numbers in Africa are enough to account for the decreases seen in Europe and N/S America.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Ti's true

The horn of Africa such as Somalia, Sudan etc used to be the centre of Islam in Africa but the faith has spread

I have no time for any organised religion

[truthpaste]

Islam is growing quickest of the 2 major religions in Africa. I’m still not sure if the increasing numbers in Africa are enough to account for the decreases seen in Europe and N/S America.

The british press wouldn't acknowledge this, however an average of 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity each and every day, and that's not Christian religion, that's Christianity.

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

The british press wouldn't acknowledge this

Probably because they'd want some proof of such a random statistic and how that was measured.

[Canton Kev]

The british press wouldn't acknowledge this, however an average of 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity each and every day, and that's not Christian religion, that's Christianity.

Why would the British press acknowledge this? The vast majority of people don’t care about religion and their growth rates in different countries. We’re no longer a majority Christian or Religious country.
If your stat is true or not it doesn’t change that Islam is the quickest growing in other parts of the world.

[truthpaste]

Why would the British press acknowledge this? The vast majority of people don’t care about religion and their growth rates in different countries. We’re no longer a majority Christian or Religious country.
If your stat is true or not it doesn’t change that Islam is the quickest growing in other parts of the world.

Because we have moved from being a Christian country to an anti-Christian country during the last 50 years.
As for your stats, few are converting TO Islam as a choice, many are being born at high rates into Muslim families.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Because we have moved from being a Christian country to an anti-Christian country during the last 50 years.
As for your stats, few are converting TO Islam as a choice, many are being born at high rates into Muslim families.

It's not that we moved to an anti Christian country , it's that people these days think it's all bollocks

Islam is a more encompassing , cultural religion but that's bollocks as well

[Canton Kev]

Because we have moved from being a Christian country to an anti-Christian country during the last 50 years.
As for your stats, few are converting TO Islam as a choice, many are being born at high rates into Muslim families.

So why would the British press report on it?
Again, that doesn’t change anything I said.

I’m not quite sure what your point is? Would we be better off as a Christian country in your mind?

[AfricanBluebird]

Interesting topic - I do like the religious ones.

I don't think we have become anti-Christian. I think Christianity has changed in the sense of it has become more polarised.

When I grew up and went to church - politics was never discussed, I never heard any anti-gay stuff and the church was welcoming to refugees and other minorities. In a crisis the church used to be the first on the front line... handing out food, helping out, providing support.

To be clear.... some churches still do that, quietly getting on with things. My brother belongs to a church in Cardiff that get on with those things.

However, there was a change in the 1990's and 2000's where I saw a lot of churches start to embrace politics... anti-gay, anti-immigration etc. To the point where it become their ONLY issues.

That sadly remains today... I'll give you an example, I was accidentally left on a CC email where churches are encouraged to write to, lobby and demonstrate AGAINST the Welsh Assemblies plan to criminalize 'conversion therapy'. The practices of forcing children and adults into a dangerous programme to make them 'Un-Gay'. A practice that should be banned and is very dangerous.

When I looked at the website link in the email it was full of bile nonsense without an ounce of compassion or humanity.

When I looked at the email list.... old middle class angry daily mail reading white males with nothing better to do. **** em.

No wonder people are sunning the church. I have... despite being a believer. Jesus was also probably first out of the door.

So I absolutely do not want the country to be a Christian country if it is anything like these ****ing morons.

[Gofer Blue]

African Bluebird - I agree with your assertion that this country (as a whole) is not anti-Christian but I would add the proviso: “not yet”. I would say that the majority of people in this country are apathetic towards Christianity rather than anti, but remember Jesus himself said that those who followed him would be hated in the world (John 15:18 and 19). Sadly I think the “church” (by which I think most people automatically mean the Church of England btw) is becoming known for what it is against rather than what it is for. Hence like one notable poster on this forum when they talk about Christianity I think they have their own fixed stereotype of Christian in mind, which makes me wonder if they have ever actually met a true Christian? Such folk may be in a minority as not everyone who attends a church is a Christian!

My “church” now is a house group – a small collection of folk from many different backgrounds who meet in a home, in many ways akin to what the early church was. We have no minister or hierarchy, just an ordinary bunch of people who are followers of Jesus and try to live as he would have us live.

(John 13, verses 34 & 35): “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Moreover we have a strong emphasis on turning our faith into actions, based on James 2:14-18: What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds”

This is what I believe the church should be. I remember someone once asked the question – would Jesus recognise his church if he came back today? It is split into so many denominations now with so many man-made traditions and customs that I'm pretty sure he would not recognise it!

Becoming a Christian has changed my life completely and has taken me into so many places and situations that I would never have considered before. I am not perfect, on the contrary like all true Christians I recognise that I am clearly not and couldn't hold a proverbial candle to Jesus, but thankfully he accepts me as I am!

[Baloo]

I actually still think a lot of religious privilege still exists in the UK. In politics, education, public ceremonial events, marriage/pastoral support and some areas of public broadcasting. And it fosters the perception of detachment, formality and a privileged position for some which simply doesn't reflect the beliefs of the majority of the UK population today. I think increasingly people either just can't relate to it, or think it's just wrong and it may need to ditched if organised religion is to find a way to present itself as authentic and interesting to a population increasingly aware of other potential sources of answers to the so-called big questions.

[truthpaste]

I actually still think a lot of religious privilege still exists in the UK. In politics, education, public ceremonial events, marriage/pastoral support and some areas of public broadcasting. And it fosters the perception of detachment, formality and a privileged position for some which simply doesn't reflect the beliefs of the majority of the UK population today. I think increasingly people either just can't relate to it, or think it's just wrong and it may need to ditched if organised religion is to find a way to present itself as authentic and interesting to a population increasingly aware of other potential sources of answers to the so-called big questions.

As someone who has known Christ since Jimmy Scholar was managing the City, I can tell you that organised religion is NOT the answer and forms the biggest barrier to individuals finding Almighty God at a personal level.
Religion = conflict, control, anger and confusion.
Christ provides true peace, true freedom, a real purpose in this life a real hope for the future.
Jesus declared - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, nobody comes to the Father, except through me"

The retirement benefits aren't too shabby either

[Taunton Blue Genie]

As someone who has known Christ since Jimmy Scholar was managing the City, I can tell you that organised religion is NOT the answer and forms the biggest barrier to individuals finding Almighty God at a personal level.
Religion = conflict, control, anger and confusion.
Christ provides true peace, true freedom, a real purpose in this life a real hope for the future.
Jesus declared - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, nobody comes to the Father, except through me"

The retirement benefits aren't too shabby either

Had you been born in another geographical location and/or in another point in time you would be lauding the concepts of Valhalla, Elysium, The Happy Hunting Grounds or a myriad of other possibilities.

White people raised in the UK in recent centuries are, statistically speaking, overwhelmingly likely to become Christian if they adopt any religion whatsoever. It has been the state religion, we were all exposed to it at school, at home, in youth organisations, in cermonies such as weddings and funerals etc etc.

It's all about which religion we are exposed to and indoctrinated with at an early age, which explains the low level of sikhism in Iceland and the dearth of believers in Valhalla in the Punjab.

Religion is merely a cultural conduit spread across the globe by missionaries, empires and even commercial entities. Such is this connection that Spanish speakers, whether they live in Mallorca or Manila, are likely to be Christians etc. Hebrew speakers are likely to be Jewish and over 90% of Arabic speakers are Muslims.

Believing in the first religion we are exposed to (if we are to be religious at at all) and rejecting all others is entirely predictable.

BY the way, you never answered my question about Moses i.e. what evidence is there regarding his reports about God's statements? Can you direct us to a credible audit trail of any description?

[Baloo]

As someone who has known Christ since Jimmy Scholar was managing the City, I can tell you that organised religion is NOT the answer and forms the biggest barrier to individuals finding Almighty God at a personal level.
Religion = conflict, control, anger and confusion.
Christ provides true peace, true freedom, a real purpose in this life a real hope for the future.
Jesus declared - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, nobody comes to the Father, except through me"

The retirement benefits aren't too shabby either

For some I'm sure. However, for others all of these are potentially available in living the one life we have.

[splott parker]

As someone who has known Christ since Jimmy Scholar was managing the City, I can tell you that organised religion is NOT the answer and forms the biggest barrier to individuals finding Almighty God at a personal level.
Religion = conflict, control, anger and confusion.
Christ provides true peace, true freedom, a real purpose in this life a real hope for the future.
Jesus declared - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, nobody comes to the Father, except through me"

The retirement benefits aren't too shabby either

Our cleverest manager gets a mention

[jon1959]

I am an atheist, but I grew up in a family and culture of non-conformist Christianity and I think the distinction made by Gofer is very interesting. Most of my family who continue to think of themselves as Christian (although they are dying out) just follow the customs and conventions put in front of them - and like the comfort of familiar rituals and settings. They just happened to be born in a time and place where that was accepted (often unquestioned) as the norm.

But my dad, now dead, was a free thinker and described himself as a secular Christian, and he and the like-minded group he was part of as 'the heretics'. He had no time for religion but chose to believe in the values and morals that he took from the life of Jesus as described in the Bible. I don't think he believed in heaven or hell, or God or the devil. He did see the bible as a series of fables and metaphors - some of which (New Testament) offered a guide to living a 'good life'. He definitely saw religions (all religions) as human constructs that evolved over time and had little to do with faith or moral codes. He saw them as organisations (and cultures) that operate like corporations for controlling people with The Pope or the Archbishop Of Canterbury as CEOs of Christianity plc.

We had endless arguments about this stuff and never agreed - except maybe about the historical role of organised religion.

[AfricanBluebird]

Super post Gofer Blue.. and Jon Candy.

Gofer Blue - Hope you are well.

I flip flop about 'church' all the time. I see the good, bad and the ugly.

Having seen, and continue to see, absolute nonsense and damage from the evangelical conservative church (all over the world) - I have long since rejected such institutions. They are ill informed, hateful, poisonous and Theologically wrong on every level. I think Conservative evangelical Christianity is one of the biggest threats to society and the church itself.

I can see the 'benefit' of more organised forms of Christianity where at least some of the leaders are trained and have a better understanding of the scriptures - CoE and Catholic church... but then again I contend with a Catholic Church who allowed Priests to abuse children.

I am friends with some Jesuit Priests, who I find inspirational. They do often the shitty work of the Catholic Church. I worked with them and they agreed that ANY abuse by Catholic leaders should be reported to the authorities - whereas the traditional Catholic way was to deal with it internally - which is illegal and a code for 'covering up'. So I do have a lot of respect for Jesuits... far more than these ill informed and theologically wrong 'born again' types.

Bottom line is I am equally as comfortable and uncomfortable in any church environment.

In terms of your point... IF indeed the country is becoming 'Anti-Christian' - I would propose that it is not actually Jesus that people have an issue with but the behaviour, attitude and grifting of the 'Church' and religious folk. I don't think many people particularly have a problem with the likes of you and I who would define ourselves as 'Christians'... most people wouldn't care if we believe that Darth Vader is Lord and Saviour.... but people do care that the church is hateful, spiteful, grifting and trying to control peoples own lives and decisions. Which I completely agree with them on.

As an aside I was at a quiz night in a team with 4 Jesuits Priests. Can you imagine we lost out by winning the quiz by one point - the Priests knew that the 2012 fourth studio album by Taylor Swift was called 'Red', and yet answered wrongly what the middle chapter of the Bible is (Psalm 117).

[Gofer Blue]

Super post Gofer Blue.. and Jon Candy.

Gofer Blue - Hope you are well.

I flip flop about 'church' all the time. I see the good, bad and the ugly.

Having seen, and continue to see, absolute nonsense and damage from the evangelical conservative church (all over the world) - I have long since rejected such institutions. They are ill informed, hateful, poisonous and Theologically wrong on every level. I think Conservative evangelical Christianity is one of the biggest threats to society and the church itself.

I can see the 'benefit' of more organised forms of Christianity where at least some of the leaders are trained and have a better understanding of the scriptures - CoE and Catholic church... but then again I contend with a Catholic Church who allowed Priests to abuse children.

I am friends with some Jesuit Priests, who I find inspirational. They do often the shitty work of the Catholic Church. I worked with them and they agreed that ANY abuse by Catholic leaders should be reported to the authorities - whereas the traditional Catholic way was to deal with it internally - which is illegal and a code for 'covering up'. So I do have a lot of respect for Jesuits... far more than these ill informed and theologically wrong 'born again' types.

Bottom line is I am equally as comfortable and uncomfortable in any church environment.

In terms of your point... IF indeed the country is becoming 'Anti-Christian' - I would propose that it is not actually Jesus that people have an issue with but the behaviour, attitude and grifting of the 'Church' and religious folk. I don't think many people particularly have a problem with the likes of you and I who would define ourselves as 'Christians'... most people wouldn't care if we believe that Darth Vader is Lord and Saviour.... but people do care that the church is hateful, spiteful, grifting and trying to control peoples own lives and decisions. Which I completely agree with them on.

As an aside I was at a quiz night in a team with 4 Jesuits Priests. Can you imagine we lost out by winning the quiz by one point - the Priests knew that the 2012 fourth studio album by Taylor Swift was called 'Red', and yet answered wrongly what the middle chapter of the Bible is (Psalm 117).

Hi African Bluebird - all ok here thanks. Are you still in Uganda these days? I haven't been back there for many years now (15 or so?) but still supporting those who are where I can. It is so sad that the actions of a few have tainted the reputation of the thousands of Catholic workers who are working at the "coal face" in some of the poorest places on the planet. I think have gone full circle where my faith is concerned. It really is quite straightforward and yet very easy to get bogged down with theological "stuff" hence am really enjoying being part of a house church rather than a "church" per se - back to the Acts of Apostles days almost! All the best - keep the faith!!

[AfricanBluebird]

I am an atheist, but I grew up in a family and culture of non-conformist Christianity and I think the distinction made by Gofer is very interesting. Most of my family who continue to think of themselves as Christian (although they are dying out) just follow the customs and conventions put in front of them - and like the comfort of familiar rituals and settings. They just happened to be born in a time and place where that was accepted (often unquestioned) as the norm.

But my dad, now dead, was a free thinker and described himself as a secular Christian, and he and the like-minded group he was part of as 'the heretics'. He had no time for religion but chose to believe in the values and morals that he took from the life of Jesus as described in the Bible. I don't think he believed in heaven or hell, or God or the devil. He did see the bible as a series of fables and metaphors - some of which (New Testament) offered a guide to living a 'good life'. He definitely saw religions (all religions) as human constructs that evolved over time and had little to do with faith or moral codes. He saw them as organisations (and cultures) that operate like corporations for controlling people with The Pope or the Archbishop Of Canterbury as CEOs of Christianity plc.

We had endless arguments about this stuff and never agreed - except maybe about the historical role of organised religion.

Jon, I like the way your dad described himself! I would probably call myself a 'Christian who doesn't care much for Christianity'.

I think that Christianity has become polarised, sadly.

If you think back to some of the great Christian minds of 100 years ago or so... Tolkien and CS Lewis etc... they used to sit, debate, argue and consider the world, universe, God etc over a pipe and a pint. They never fell out but disagreed a lot - this is a trait much missing from today. They would then use their 'art' to explore these issues - their doubts, concerns, weaknesses and ultimately joy. C S Lewis wrote about the death of his wife is brutally honest terms. Tolkien explored questioning the existence of God and good and evil, in light of the first world war through Lord of the Rings... how can God exist when so many bad things happen to innocent people.

Really meaty stuff.

We have lost that, sadly.

[jon1959]

Jon, I like the way your dad described himself! I would probably call myself a 'Christian who doesn't care much for Christianity'.

I think that Christianity has become polarised, sadly.

If you think back to some of the great Christian minds of 100 years ago or so... Tolkien and CS Lewis etc... they used to sit, debate, argue and consider the world, universe, God etc over a pipe and a pint. They never fell out but disagreed a lot - this is a trait much missing from today. They would then use their 'art' to explore these issues - their doubts, concerns, weaknesses and ultimately joy. C S Lewis wrote about the death of his wife is brutally honest terms. Tolkien explored questioning the existence of God and good and evil, in light of the first world war through Lord of the Rings... how can God exist when so many bad things happen to innocent people.

Really meaty stuff.

We have lost that, sadly.

It is meaty stuff. I should have said that my dad continued to attend church services and church discussion groups all his life - despite his opinion about organised religion. His interest in theology led to him studying philosophy in later life and he would jump around from Christian thinkers, some Islamic writers, the ancient Greeks, John Locke to modern philosophers and treat them all the same.

I rejected religion and faith very young. I then tried to work out what is the 'meaning of life' (Monty Python's take is as good as any) and concluded there is no meaning. We are just here and need to work things out for ourselves. That then led me to a social and political framework for changing the world (power structures and belief systems) so it gives as many people as possible a quality and purpose to life. Teenage idealism that has stuck for a lifetime.

(PS - I'm not Jon Candy. My photos aren't that good!)