Reply With QuoteYet trying to rely on facts and verified evidence, it still can't tell them how life began, why we are actually here and what happens when these bodies expire?Originally Posted by UNDERHILL1927
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I believe in facts, evidence and proof, so much so I said it three times with different words.I didn't think atheists had beliefs?
Sorry - posted twice!
Yet trying to rely on facts and verified evidence, it still can't tell them how life began, why we are actually here and what happens when these bodies expire?
The good thing is these criteria aren’t just dropped to get a satisfying answer when the questions are difficult.
Indeed, yet they are often fudged to make the speculative side of science look wise.
Unfortunately in this particular case it's no wiser then any other human guesswork, as a long history of revised statements will testify!
Of course we know how life began and what happens when life expires.
There is no why, there is no meaning attached to it.
If you think a history of revised statements is a criticism of science I think you've fundamentally misunderstood it.
1. Science means knowledge
2. Knowledge is limited at any point in time but increases in due course with data, intelligence, information and the wit of man.
On the other hand, a tome written thousands of years ago and which mentions a talking snake has all the answers.
The wit of man - how is that worked out this last 19 months? Man is wonderful
As for your swipe at the Bible, why does science use it to help them make discoveries in areas such as archaeology if it's just a bunch of fairy tales?
Why does it speak of specific things hundreds, sometimes thousands of years before they happen?
GOLFER BLUE - As for atheists:
They have greater faith than any theist who has ever lived; if only they understood that
Do you believe the report of a talking snake in the Bible?The wit of man - how is that worked out this last 19 months? Man is wonderful
As for your swipe at the Bible, why does science use it to help them make discoveries in areas such as archaeology if it's just a bunch of fairy tales?
Why does it speak of specific things hundreds, sometimes thousands of years before they happen?
As usual, the exact opposite is true. I thought you were supposed to be the one who understood what 'faith' means. Seems not.GOLFER BLUE - As for atheists:
They have greater faith than any theist who has ever lived; if only they understood that
Would you care to test that supposition?
Again?
Harry Wilson’s grandad made a bet when he was a baby he’d play for Wales. When’s he getting a chapter in the bible?The wit of man - how is that worked out this last 19 months? Man is wonderful
As for your swipe at the Bible, why does science use it to help them make discoveries in areas such as archaeology if it's just a bunch of fairy tales?
Why does it speak of specific things hundreds, sometimes thousands of years before they happen?
What specific things does the bible speak of hundreds/thousands of years in advance?
Come on step up you humanists:
https://humanists.uk/census-2021/
That would only work if it was proven that nobody else made a similar bet re their grandchildren, the criteria for Biblical prophesy is that it can't fail or even be 95% correct. But nice try
Hundreds of things, this one is festive (keeping with Tescos insistance that Christmas is upon us), Micah 5v2 names the specific place and 'postcode' (as their were 2 Bethlehems) for the birth of Christ some 700 years later.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_...%20the%20cross.That would only work if it was proven that nobody else made a similar bet re their grandchildren, the criteria for Biblical prophesy is that it can't fail or even be 95% correct. But nice try
there are some very very tenuous interpretations of old testament prophecies that are twisted into meaninglessness to try to make Jesus seem like the subject of the prophecy.
so if Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Galilee, why is all that stuff about Joseph and Mary having to travel to Judea? it doesn't seem as though this Bible is a very reliable source
It has NEVER been proven to be anything less than accurate. They settled in Nazareth, however Mary and Joseph had to return to Judah for the Roman-mandated census.
You seem to have missed a couple of my questions in this thread. Do you believe that the story about the talking snake is true or is it allegorical?
something that only starts to appear in text dating from a long time after Jesus died, where they change details to try to make Jesus match the prophecy?
many historians have stated that there is no evidence of any similar requirements in the Roman empire of people being made to return to the town their ancestors lived in for a census it is almost certainly a fabrication.
now you are also mentioning they might have been from another Bethlehem in Galilee - so which is it? which Bethlehem was Jesus born in?
Are you trying to claim that Micah 5v2 wasn't written BC and was actually written AFTER His Birth????
I find it odd that many people who claim to be "liberal" just love having a pop at religion. Liberalism is about mutual acceptance of other people's point of view, however offensive or contrarian that opinion proves to be. I find it sad that non-believers feel the need to berate believers. What difference does it make to your life? Why get hot under the collar about someone else’s choices? You wouldn’t complain about them choosing to follow a gay life. So why berate them for a religious life? I would add the following perspectives to the debate
Faith is comforting. Truth and rationalism is not
I think what irks the people most about other people following religion is that they are happy. Even if in a blissfully ignorant way, they are happy. And that irks the complainant. Perhaps because the irrationality of an unevidenced and unrobust faith is comforting. People of low income in poor countries. The lowly educated. They can be happy. They have faith and so they just believe, and it gives them comfort and hope. For the rationalist / aetheist, it can lead to unhappiness. For if not believing leads to a lack of faith, science leads you to philosophical questions such as "So what is it all for?" What is your purpose in life? Why do you work? All these questions become difficult and can lead to an unsatisfactory conclusion, no conclusion and even depression. My gran is 89 and not had much in life. But she is happy, grateful and accepts “god’s way”. There is a happiness premium to take there.
Religion as an educational tool
These days, schools and universities provide education. Over a hundred and fifty years ago hardly anyone were educated. Churches provided the unscientific allegories that gave values, principles and lessons on life, regardless of their technical accuracy. Sometimes a general point with false detail is better than absolute precision of data with an immemorable narrative. People remember stories. Very few quote accurate data. Stories are a better way to tell life’s lessons. Can anyone disagree that the ten commandments are a great way to live? Does anyone think that the story of Cane and Abel’s gruesome ending has no value? These were as memorable to me on life’s lessons as were Aesop’s Fables and Mabinogion in Welsh. The role may have faded, but given the criminality and crookedness in the world, religion still fills a useful role for many people.
Religion's influence fading with professionalism and increased secondary / tertiary education
As people become more primary, secondary and tertiary educated they are more capable of seeking data, forming opinions and analysing issues. That said, there are still a lot of uneducated people in the world who do not receive this. In addition, don’t kid yourself that educated people are wiser. Intelligence should never be confused with good decision making (wisdom). Wisdom comes from a knowledge of history, the ability to deal with multiple mental models, reading between the lines, and a sound final judgement. I have seen PHD mathematicians and physicists think they are so clever that they can advise investment banks make a fortune. They just lacked the wisdom and a few were responsible for pulling down banks in the Great Financial Crisis. Intelligence? Yes. Wisdom? No. I have seen people with Masters in Accounting go bankrupt. Intelligence? Yes. Wisdom? No. The bible does contain a lot of wisdom on life’s mistakes. And for all the scientists and well educated sense of superiority, I still see them making mistakes that the bible would otherwise advise. Committing adultery, lying, cheating, stealing, even murder. Not quite as superior as they think.
7 day a week commercialism / globalism
The demand’s from multinationals to open up business days from 5 to 7 days a week doesn’t help. It has taken away leisure time that people used to use to go to Church. If not purely religious, it was a social activity. Now replaced with people doing “retail therapy” or staring at the Playstation wondering which of their mates they can shoot with a Glock next, once they “level up”.
So am I religious? No. My grandparents and great-grandparents were a mixture of Calvinists, Methodists, Wesleyans and Church of Wales. I was Church of Wales as a child and early teens, and then I let go. What I do see is that a lot of people find comfort in it, perhaps in poverty or loss of a relative. Science would lead them to be miserable, as it leads them to the conclusion that they are here for a short while, to earn money, then tap out. A god of some sort gives them faith. A belief. And that can give a lot of comfort and happiness. I would probably describe myself as agnostic but open-minded on it. Just because I am highly educated, I don’t feel it gives me a moral high ground. Religion has its uses. It makes people happy. It is also a source of community.
So who am I to argue and denigrate just because I am inclined for the moment not to believe? I am a true liberal at heart. Live and let live. It makes them happy, leave them be - whatever the religion.
no, that isn't what I'm saying at all
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