Another mass shooting

[Heisenberg]

Such hysterical anger !
I didn’t tell anyone what opinions they can have.
Some people might think liberty is even more important than safety- ever considered that ?

I can’t even de cypher the stuff about vox pops and it’s not implicit in protecting the Constitution that you want people to kill anyone.

It’s only the dumbed down generation who think charts and graphs are a substitute for common sense or logical thinking so no I won’t bother with that bollocks.

You don’t seem to grasp that there are so many guns in the USA which is a big place that it’d take 100 years of gun control before you’d reduce gun crimes.

Bit freaky wishing people harm because they said something you didn’t like on a message board really!

The vox pop and charts thing wasn't a real challenge for you. Someone of your self-professed intelligence and ability to think logically should surely be able to understand obvious sarcasm. I said it in relation to your comment: "We don't hear the dumbed down generation complaining about countries where they execute homosexuals and adulterers , prevent females going to school or perform genocide , but they're incandescent with rage that a free country allows its citizens personal responsibility and freedom from state intervention before any crime has been committed ."

I'd like to know how many of these people you actually know to even be aware of what they say or believe. It's the usual shit espoused by those who can't back up their own arguments so they invent a new one, with a nice side of whataboutism. If the dumbed down generation were complaining about the things that you mentioned (which they very obviously do), which alt-right website or news channel that you so obviously frequent would you be able to access that information from? (see, I can generalise too).

It would take 100 years to reduce gun crimes?! To just reduce it... really? Even as little as not having more than one mass shooting every single day? (There have been 253 confirmed mass shootings (four or more people being shot) so far this year in the States - we're on day 216).

Even if something took a long time to fix, is it not worth even trying? (isn't that the motto of the Brexiteers?)

[RonnieBird]

The vox pop and charts thing wasn't a real challenge for you. Someone of your self-professed intelligence and ability to think logically should surely be able to understand obvious sarcasm. I said it in relation to your comment: "We don't hear the dumbed down generation complaining about countries where they execute homosexuals and adulterers , prevent females going to school or perform genocide , but they're incandescent with rage that a free country allows its citizens personal responsibility and freedom from state intervention before any crime has been committed ."

I'd like to know how many of these people you actually know to even be aware of what they say or believe. It's the usual shit espoused by those who can't back up their own arguments so they invent a new one, with a nice side of whataboutism. If the dumbed down generation were complaining about the things that you mentioned (which they very obviously do), which alt-right website or news channel that you so obviously frequent would you be able to access that information from? (see, I can generalise too).

It would take 100 years to reduce gun crimes?! To just reduce it... really? Even as little as not having more than one mass shooting every single day? (There have been 253 confirmed mass shootings (four or more people being shot) so far this year in the States - we're on day 216).

Even if something took a long time to fix, is it not worth even trying? (isn't that the motto of the Brexiteers?)

My motto is "Dieu et mon droit" actually. Can't speak for anyone else.

Look, I must offer you respect for putting your point as logically as is possible with the material available and without the rudeness which is very common here, ( don't mind anyone taking the piss though, please don't think I'm that precious).

It's kind of unstructured with respect so it's hard to answer concisely. Firstly, I don't think I've ever particularly professed intelligence, but more importantly ,generalisation is a very effective and important human ability without which we wouldn't have survived, so don't knock it - it's only been denounced quite recently by this intolerant dumbed down generation I spoke of.

As you get older you eventually speak to lots and lots of people and do stuff yourself during which you tend to reach conclusions which are probably more reliable than news channels and polls because you know they're true. I'm sure you're right that some of these kids occasionally complain about third world brutalities, ( after all , they complain about everything ), but we don't get this constant withering fire of protest about - for example- terrorist and other attacks in Pakistan where deaths are regularly numbered in hundreds , that we hear about gun laws in the World's leading democracy.

You don't have to start compiling statistics on it because it'd be hard to avoid noticing it.

I'm not quite sure what an alt right website is, but I think you must have been reading an alt wrong one. Best not to take too much notice of any of them though really because they've all got an agenda.

It's vital really to be suspicious of all " news and information " channels and services.

All I'm concerned with is the truth as far as I can discern it and you may see it differently. You almost certainly won't think any of that stuff in 20 years time by the way, but I don't disrespect or dislike you for forming your own opinions and whether I happen to agree or not I'm very keen on preserving your ability to express them insofar as that idea still exists in the U.K.

Without getting too complex ,there are very good reasons for the 2nd amendment and in my opinion they outweigh the unintended harmful consequences . Someone said something like, " Those who give up their liberties in exchange for security will end up losing both and deserving neither ".
I tend to think that if you went into a bit you'd probably agree, and probably will in the future , but in the mean time I don't think we have to be angry with the other because we see things a bit differently. I'm sure we both only want the best outcome.

[Heisenberg]

I didn’t tell anyone what opinions they can have.

I find it remarkable that so many people here think they've got some right to dictate to the USA that they should change their constitution.

Umm... I think this counts.

[RonnieBird]

Umm... I think this counts.

Well you're wrong. An opinion isn't a right to decide and I said that I find it remarkable, not ban it.
Is English perhaps a second language to you ?

[Heisenberg]

Well you're wrong. An opinion isn't a right to decide and I said that I find it remarkable, not ban it.
Is English perhaps a second language to you ?

Perhaps it is, because I'm not understanding you at all. People were sharing their opinions on gun control and what they believe should be done in relation to it - not declaring their right to decide on what the US govt do. Please signpost me to where one person has said that what you're suggesting has been posted. If you can't do that, I suggest you try to refrain from making things up in future.

Since I know that it's only opinions that have been shared on this topic, not posters declaring anything about their rights to decide (or whatever else you may wish to suggest) - the fact that you were explicitly linking the same people as being against freedom of speech is definitely ironic when you were also saying that they have no right to suggest what America should or shouldn't do.

[surge]

Such hysterical anger !
I didn’t tell anyone what opinions they can have.
Some people might think liberty is even more important than safety- ever considered that ?

It’s only the dumbed down generation who think charts and graphs are a substitute for common sense or logical thinking so no I won’t bother with that bollocks.

If you have time please listen to this: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/659...e-the-next-one

The impact of gun violence doesn't end when the UK stops talking about what is happening in the USA (typically 4-5 days after an attack until the next one), instead it just carries on darkening people's lives and this impact is aided by those who are saying "now is not the time to talk about it" each time the conversation is started. I'm not sure how you can tell a parent who has lost a child at their school that liberty is greater than safety but if you feel comfortable in doing so then fair enough.

[Eric Cartman]

I find it remarkable that so many people here think they've got some right to dictate to the USA that they should change their constitution.

I get it, you don't like the right to bear arms any more than you like the freedom of speech or restricting illegal immigration, but why does it worry you if a foreign country has these things ? It's not as if we've got any of that stuff here, is it ?

We don't hear the dumbed down generation complaining about countries where they execute homosexuals and adulterers , prevent females going to school or perform genocide , but they're incandescent with rage that a free country allows its citizens personal responsibility and freedom from state intervention before any crime has been committed .

Yes I remember now, you can't criticise one thing without criticising every bad thing.

[life on mars]

Evil every where just the numbers and effect alter I found this disturbing.

A SEX worker mum murdered her toddler daughters before putting their clothes up for sale on Facebook, it has been revealed today.
Louise Porton, 23, was today jailed for life with a minimum of 32 years for suffocating her daughters Lexi Draper, three, and Scarlett Vaughan, 16-months, to death.

And this :

A six-year-old boy was thrown five floors from the 10th floor of the Tate Modern art gallery in central London, police said.

He landed on a fifth floor roof and was taken to hospital by air ambulance after he fell at about 14:45 BST on Sunday.

The boy's condition is described as critical.

A 17-year-old boy has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder, the Met Police said.

[Eric Cartman]

You don’t seem to grasp that there are so many guns in the USA which is a big place that it’d take 100 years of gun control before you’d reduce gun crimes.

Citation for that figure? Would be keen to work read the study that made that prediction.

[RonnieBird]

Citation for that figure? Would be keen to work read the study that made that prediction.

I made the prediction myself, but I'm quite certain that anyone who knew much about it would agree. There are far more guns than people in the USA, people have them in their attics and garages in remote areas and criminals who have access to firearms aren't going to give them up either.
A Japanese General ruled out a land invasion of the USA because " there'd be a gun behind every hedgerow".

You'd be surprised how much stuff exists in the real world which has yet to be substantiated by a pencil necked theorist doing a study on it.

[Eric Cartman]

I'd be keen to know who would win in a battle between a self trained militia armed with assault rifles or a tyrannical government blowing them up from drones they can't even see.

Reality has moved way beyond the purpose of the second amendment that all it does now is make sure more people get murdered than in comparable countries.

[Wales-Bales]

I'd be keen to know who would win in a battle between a self trained militia armed with assault rifles or a tyrannical government blowing them up from drones they can't even see.

Reality has moved way beyond the purpose of the second amendment that all it does now is make sure more people get murdered than in comparable countries.

That's a big diversion in a thread that is supposed to be about the tragic loss of innocent lives. You asked for a citation in a previous post, and now you are assuming that the military would follow the orders of Chuck & Nancy? Just like a previous poster who assured us that the shooters were right wing, you seem keen to twist these events so that they fit with your own political ideology. We don't even know the facts yet, but you are already suggesting a solution that is based on a hypothetical event which bears no relation to reality.

[RonnieBird]

I'd be keen to know who would win in a battle between a self trained militia armed with assault rifles or a tyrannical government blowing them up from drones they can't even see.

Reality has moved way beyond the purpose of the second amendment that all it does now is make sure more people get murdered than in comparable countries.

Perhaps you should study the War of Independence then. Try reading about the battle of Trenton.
I'm guessing that you wouldn't personally know an smp from a banjo, but low tech often beats high tech in the real world.
- you also assume that U.S Forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners.

[lardy]

Perhaps you should study the War of Independence then. Try reading about the battle of Trenton.
I'm guessing that you wouldn't personally know an smp from a banjo, but low tech often beats high tech in the real world.
- you also assume that U.S Forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners.

Absolutely bizarre response. Eric Cartman's point is that the constitution is badly out of date, and your response is to cite conflicts from before its existence!

[RonnieBird]

Absolutely bizarre response. Eric Cartman's point is that the constitution is badly out of date, and your response is to cite conflicts from before its existence!

I disagree that the Constitution is " out of date ". So do millions of Americans, and they'll fight for it. If Americans ever want to change their constitution or laws they'll do that themselves. I mentioned Trenton and 1776 because that was the last time foreign slaves tried to enforce the will of their masters on the American people by force .

[Rjk]

Perhaps you should study the War of Independence then. Try reading about the battle of Trenton.
I'm guessing that you wouldn't personally know an smp from a banjo, but low tech often beats high tech in the real world.
- you also assume that U.S Forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners.

Where does he assume that us forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners?
Who are these foreigners ?

[RonnieBird]

Where does he assume that us forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners?
Who are these foreigners ?

Is he a US citizen then ? He wants patriots "killed by drones they can't even see".

There are more substantial foreign interests working to undermine the U.S Constitution actually, but I'm not going to attempt to discuss them here.

[City123]

Is he a US citizen then ? He wants patriots "killed by drones they can't even see".

There are more substantial foreign interests working to undermine the U.S Constitution actually, but I'm not going to attempt to discuss them here.

Combining that comment with this: "you also assume that U.S Forces would kill their own people on the say so of foreigners", is Eric the foreigner you're talking about and are you saying that a Cardiff City messageboard user is in such a position of power that he could order US troops to fire on citizens?

[City123]

This thread is ****ing bizarre

[delmbox]

Is he a US citizen then ? He wants patriots "killed by drones they can't even see".

There are more substantial foreign interests working to undermine the U.S Constitution actually, but I'm not going to attempt to discuss them here.

When did he say that he wants patriots killed by drones they can't even see?

[life on mars]

I've seen loads of threads here down the years where people wrung their hands in despair about gun deaths in the United States but never one related to the numbers dying in South American, Central American, or Caribbean countries. Is it because they simply don't give a hoot about those people? It's more likely they're unaware because the corporate media is so focused on the U.S.

Brilliant post I've thought the same myself when you see unbalanced argument on many subjects, I believe as you say it's media driven ,selective interest,and political point scoring .

[the other bob wilson]

Brilliant post I've thought the same myself when you see unbalanced argument on many subjects, I believe as you say it's media driven ,selective interest,and political point scoring .

I've been deliberately trying not to get involved in as many political threads now the football has started, but I can't believe the way this thread has developed.

America has been seen as the leader of the so called free world for maybe a century. Let's bear that in mind, when people are reduced to putting up charts which show that there are more gun deaths per hundred thousand in nineteen countries than there are in America.

Is it a shock to see any of those nineteen countries where they are in that chart? Not to me it isn't and maybe that's why the media don't make an issue of it. The notion that being as low as twentieth in that table can, in some way, be used as argument to support America is completely risible when you consider the way it is portrayed and seen as an enlightened society which others aspire to, but fail to match - which of the nineteen above the USA could such a claim be made about?

Twenty nine people in Dayton and El Paso (including a sister of one of the gunmen) who were alive and well on Friday are now dead because America cannot see what has been obvious for decades. When the founding fathers talked about the right to bear arms, they, surely, could not have thought that almost two hundred and fifty years later, their words would be used by those who seek to defend a situation whereby far more powerful weapons than they ever saw are aimed and fired at defenceless Americans who are unlucky enough to be too close by at the time.

The fact that incidents like those seen at the weekend are going on, and have been going on for far too long, in a country with the reputation and influence that America has should be a national humiliation for them and anyone who tries to argue otherwise can only be doing so through stubborn political dogma.

[lardy]

Brilliant post I've thought the same myself when you see unbalanced argument on many subjects, I believe as you say it's media driven ,selective interest,and political point scoring .

What do you make of Trump using the shootings for political point scoring?

Making a newly orphaned and injured baby return to the hospital so he could give a thumbs up photo op.

From the First Lady’s twitter account, this appears to be the baby both of whose parents died shielding him from the El Paso shooter. The baby in question was discharged the day before and brought back for Trumps visit. Child is not id’d on @flotus account. But appears to... pic.twitter.com/17L6XQROMS

— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) August 9, 2019

And releasing this video.

My time spent in Dayton and El Paso with some of the greatest people on earth. Thank you for a job well done! pic.twitter.com/TNVDGhxOpo

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 8, 2019

[life on mars]

Citation for that figure? Would be keen to work read the study that made that prediction.

Americans made up 4 percent of the world's population but owned about 46 percent of the entire global stock of 857 million civilian firearms."[5] U.S civilians own 393 million guns.

[lardy]

Just imagine how bad it would be in the US if they didn't have all those thoughts and prayers flying around.