Jewish group walks away from Labour

[jon1959]

Jeremy Corbyn on the Jewish Chronicle front page attack today:

"Antisemitism is a poison and an evil in our society. Any form of racism is a poison and an evil in our society. I have spent my whole life fighting against racism. I will die an anti-racist.

"I want every community to feel safe and supported in this country - the Jewish community, the Muslim community, any other community from any faith or any other part of the world.

"Our party has confronted the issue. We have suspended or expelled members. We have an education programme. And all of that has been set up since I became the leader of this party. And we will carry on doing exactly that.

"There are many Jewish people in this country who are members of the Labour party, supporters of the Labour party, work with the Labour party, and they do not share the views that have been put forward that have been put forward on the front page of the Jewish Chronicle. I regret the Jewish Chronicle has chosen to say that.

"I simply say to everyone, our community is stronger when people work together, when we recognise the danger and poison that antisemitism is. We will be a stronger community when we defeat all forms of racism. And I will be part of that campaign to eradicate racism in any form."

[RonnieBird]

What reasons did they give for that position? I see no evidence that Jewish people would be discriminated against under a labour government. Maybe you can change my mind with examples of discrimation currently taking place within the party.

Can't help but feel that if it was any other group in society the same people latching onto this would be condemning them for being 'anti-british' or something equally ridiculous and that hypocrisy for party political reasons is rotten.

Their reasons are almost beside the point Eric. Their fears may or may not be justified, but the effect will be the same either way, which is that lots of people believe labour to be a bunch of anti Semites and will therefore not vote for them.
Now ,right here in this thread we've seen examples. You've been perfectly rational and logical in your defence of labour, but two others have come up with exactly the kind of thing which causes the mistrust , defending anti semitism and adding a bit of their own .

It's reasonable to say that there are so many examples of anti semitism in that party that it's certainly a problem. I'm sure it's one which could be quickly solved if they stopped denying or defending it, but they won't . I'm also sure that 99% of labour voters aren't either anti Semites of nutters, but it's that 1% or less who worry decent people, especially when they're right at the top of the party .

I don't want to start this circular discussion again about whether the Nazis were theoretically socialists, but most Jewish people I know seem to think they were to all practical purposes, and I've heard many hypothesising about how they could quickly transform this subtle anti Jew theme into open hostility just as the Nazis did if they got into power.
They'd certainly bankrupt the country quite quickly with their current mad policies and a return to the days of power cuts, reduced working weeks and real poverty they'd create would be just the environment for trouble - how long before they blamed the Jews for the chaos they'd created ?
Last time they did the real socialist thing, ( which Blair didn't ), Dennis Healey hadn't alienated the USA, so they could go begging to the imf to bail them out, but these nutters would be so openly hostile to the free world that this wouldn't be an option.
Who would be blamed ? Who gets blamed every time a dictator wants a scapegoat , and this one knows he'd have a sympathetic audience amongst his supporters ?

Are these realistic fears ? Who knows, but they're real fears, and so they'll have real effects

[jon1959]

Len McCluskey pussyfooting around again:

'Treacherous hypocrite @IanAustin1965 calling for a Tory vote in the general election is no surprise.'

'He turned his back on @UKLabour values many, many years ago.'

[Eric Cartman]

Their reasons are almost beside the point Eric. Their fears may or may not be justified, but the effect will be the same either way, which is that lots of people believe labour to be a bunch of anti Semites and will therefore not vote for them.
Now ,right here in this thread we've seen examples. You've been perfectly rational and logical in your defence of labour, but two others have come up with exactly the kind of thing which causes the mistrust , defending anti semitism and adding a bit of their own .

It's reasonable to say that there are so many examples of anti semitism in that party that it's certainly a problem. I'm sure it's one which could be quickly solved if they stopped denying or defending it, but they won't . I'm also sure that 99% of labour voters aren't either anti Semites of nutters, but it's that 1% or less who worry decent people, especially when they're right at the top of the party .

I don't want to start this circular discussion again about whether the Nazis were theoretically socialists, but most Jewish people I know seem to think they were to all practical purposes, and I've heard many hypothesising about how they could quickly transform this subtle anti Jew theme into open hostility just as the Nazis did if they got into power.
They'd certainly bankrupt the country quite quickly with their current mad policies and a return to the days of power cuts, reduced working weeks and real poverty they'd create would be just the environment for trouble - how long before they blamed the Jews for the chaos they'd created ?
Last time they did the real socialist thing, ( which Blair didn't ), Dennis Healey hadn't alienated the USA, so they could go begging to the imf to bail them out, but these nutters would be so openly hostile to the free world that this wouldn't be an option.
Who would be blamed ? Who gets blamed every time a dictator wants a scapegoat , and this one knows he'd have a sympathetic audience amongst his supporters ?

Are these realistic fears ? Who knows, but they're real fears, and so they'll have real effects

If someone is scared of something and they don't know why, what can you do to stop that? If some Jewish people are going to vote against Corbyn specifically because they think he is going to cause harm to their way of life then what can anybody do about that. In my opinion it is nonsense and I think if such seemingly outlandish claims were made by any other minority group or about any other political party they would be laughed off here and they certainly would get the column inches and air time that this gets.

It probably will have an effect on the result, like thousands of other things.

I found this story funny and unsettling in equal measure - https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/m...green-1.491017

[RonnieBird]

That's remarkable Eric because I myself received a telephone call this week from an old friend asking me to exercise a proxy vote for him and his wife !
He explained that due to the short notice election they haven't got time to send out postal vote forms so they're advising people to use proxy votes. I hardly dare mention this because it seems so convenient to my argument , but they expressed a wish to do all they could to prevent Corbyn being elected - I certainly wouldn't have mentioned it but I had to when I read what you posted !

[trampie09]

That's remarkable Eric because I myself received a telephone call this week from an old friend asking me to exercise a proxy vote for him and his wife !
He explained that due to the short notice election they haven't got time to send out postal vote forms so they're advising people to use proxy votes. I hardly dare mention this because it seems so convenient to my argument , but they expressed a wish to do all they could to prevent Corbyn being elected - I certainly wouldn't have mentioned it but I had to when I read what you posted !

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...ned-be-jewish/
Are they looking in the wrong direction ?
https://www.thejc.com/comment/commen...fears-1.491022
Just read the last paragraph for the punchline !

[RonnieBird]

You quote two viewpoints. You and they might be right, but as I said to Eric, the point remains that opinion within both the Jewry and general public seems to have reached a critical mass against labour and Corbyn.
It might change with a new leader, but for the moment they're not trusted

[RonnieBird]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...-labour-party/


A caller to LBC speaks of labour anti semitism . Worth a listen

[jon1959]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presente...-labour-party/


A caller to LBC speaks of labour anti semitism . Worth a listen

And the comments below the article are worth a read.

[RonnieBird]

I'm not sure what you're saying Jon - that the victims are lying/ very sensitive , or that they deserve it ?

[jon1959]

I'm not sure what you're saying Jon - that the victims are lying/ very sensitive , or that they deserve it ?

None of those things. You are promoting the views of Jason, and long-time resident of Jerusalem attacking the Labour Party (although saying in his view that rising anti-semitism in the UK/Europe long pre-dates Corbyn). The comments under the article demolish his argument and challenge the conflation of Israeli state actions and experiences with those of Jewish people on the streets of European cities. It is what you do too - so no wonder you like what he says. Unless it comes from Netanyahu or Trump the Jewish Chronicle takes (rightly) a very dim view of that type of conflation. The label it normally applies is 'anti semitic trope' and usually backs it up with a reference to the full IHRA definition with examples - the one now adopted by the Labour Party, but not strangely by the Tories!

(I think the IHRA definition examples are rubbish - over half refer to the state of Israel - but critics can't have it both ways!)

[trampie09]

None of those things. You are promoting the views of Jason, and long-time resident of Jerusalem attacking the Labour Party (although saying in his view that rising anti-semitism in the UK/Europe long pre-dates Corbyn). The comments under the article demolish his argument and challenge the conflation of Israeli state actions and experiences with those of Jewish people on the streets of European cities. It is what you do too - so no wonder you like what he says. Unless it comes from Netanyahu or Trump the Jewish Chronicle takes (rightly) a very dim view of that type of conflation. The label it normally applies is 'anti semitic trope' and usually backs it up with a reference to the full IHRA definition with examples - the one now adopted by the Labour Party, but not strangely by the Tories!

(I think the IHRA definition examples are rubbish - over half refer to the state of Israel - but critics can't have it both ways!)

I agree.
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/2018/07/...-defined-them/

[RonnieBird]

Of course it predates Corbyn but the point is that in labour it has an official "volks" Party to attach itself to.
A charismatic but probably insane "leader" who promises impossible wealth to the lowest and most unproductive parts of society and has used procedural blocking tactics to engineer power in the state parliament .
He's already setting the Jews up to absorb the anger when his mad claims prove false and unprecedented poverty follows.

When he's caught being anti Semitic he says it's a plot by Jews and Israel to falsely incriminate him and when his mad schemes for pay without work and free everything lead to bankruptcy we can guess that he'll say that's a Jewish conspiracy too.

[Eric Cartman]

Of course it predates Corbyn but the point is that in labour it has an official "volks" Party to attach itself to.
A charismatic but probably insane "leader" who promises impossible wealth to the lowest and most unproductive parts of society and has used procedural blocking tactics to engineer power in the state parliament .
He's already setting the Jews up to absorb the anger when his mad claims prove false and unprecedented poverty follows.

When he's caught being anti Semitic he says it's a plot by Jews and Israel to falsely incriminate him and when his mad schemes for pay without work and free everything lead to bankruptcy we can guess that he'll say that's a Jewish conspiracy too.

Now you are just making shit up.

[RonnieBird]

Now you are just making shit up.

Some might call it speculating based upon the actions of previous nutters when they got power.

[jon1959]

Now you are just making shit up.

Surely not. You do know you are talking about the highland laird, friend and adviser of presidents and prime ministers, insider at the BBC, a black belt at dodging guns to the head, the most successful at something or other since Donald Trump claimed to be successful at something or other, and expert on history, painting and decorating and dealing with damp spots. Show some respect! You are just making out that Ronnie is a self-obsessed, bullshitting fantacist, and that can't be right.... can it?

[RonnieBird]

Surely not. You do know you are talking about the highland laird, friend and adviser of presidents and prime ministers, insider at the BBC, a black belt at dodging guns to the head, the most successful at something or other since Donald Trump claimed to be successful at something or other, and expert on history, painting and decorating and dealing with damp spots. Show some respect! You are just making out that Ronnie is a self-obsessed, bullshitting fantacist, and that can't be right.... can it?

Well at least I'm not an anti Semite .
Nice try at diverting from some of the stuff you've said , ( and I notice the other one jumps in ). I'm terribly sorry if I've learned anything or done anything in my quite long life, but I'm afraid I have. Maybe I should have sat on my arse, known my place then complained that I only failed because of class prejudice and the Jews .

Once again, you don't address the subject because you can't , so you vomit out a bit more abuse.

[jon1959]

Well at least I'm not an anti Semite .
Nice try at diverting from some of the stuff you've said , ( and I notice the other one jumps in ). I'm terribly sorry if I've learned anything or done anything in my quite long life, but I'm afraid I have. Maybe I should have sat on my arse, known my place then complained that I only failed because of class prejudice and the Jews .

Once again, you don't address the subject because you can't , so you vomit out a bit more abuse.

The only anti-semitic stuff in this thread has come from you. You have made some outrageous claims about anti-semitic views from other posters without any substance at all. You have thrown regular tantrums. You have indulged yourself with lies, distortions, inventions and pathetic wild allegations about the mass social democratic party of the UK being a likely cause of a bloodbath for British Jews. You have claimed that other posters on this board are colluding in this murderous conspiracy that you have dreamt up. It is equally sick and pathetic.

At the same time you have gone with the George Soros international conspiracy (one of the main anti-semitic tropes of our time), you have conflated the views and interests of European Jewish people with those of the Israeli state. You have denounced anti-Zionist Jews and others as anti-semites (although avoided the 'self hating' label that usually comes with it), including those who survived Auchwitz and others who lost their whole families in the holocaust.

Many of the most active opponents of Corbyn and Labour who have weaponised the anti-semitism charges (some of which are genuine and must be stamped out; some of which are false, exaggerated or based on the new definition which makes opposition to Israeli apartheid a sin of anti-semitism) are sharing pickets and platforms with British neo-Nazis (anti-semites themselves but pro Israel) and right wing populists (anti-semites themselves but pro Israel) like Viktor Orban. Kippers like you fit in well.

[trampie09]

That is a ridiculous last post RonnieBird it leads me to wonder if you think Corbyn will do what Edward the 1st ?

[RonnieBird]

Build castles in Wales ? Subdue the Scots ?
Actually of course he did also kill lots of Jews , so I expect that's what you mean.

On the other hand, and knowing that you're a bit of a Welsh nationalist, I wonder whether you fear that he might present a secret love child he's produced with Dianne Abbot and invest him as Prince of Wales ?

[trampie09]

Build castles in Wales ? Subdue the Scots ?
Actually of course he did also kill lots of Jews , so I expect that's what you mean.

On the other hand, and knowing that you're a bit of a Welsh nationalist, I wonder whether you fear that he might present a secret love child he's produced with Dianne Abbot and invest him as Prince of Wales ?

Unlike you I don't fear a man that has spent his whole political career fighting racism of all kinds.

[RonnieBird]

Unlike you I don't fear a man that has spent his whole political career fighting racism of all kinds.

I really didn't know that Edward Longshanks did that Trampie .

[trampie09]

I heard that Longshanks though that usury was against all the great religions of the world and acted accordingly to protect his people from such practices.

[RonnieBird]

I heard that Longshanks though that usury was against all the great religions of the world and acted accordingly to protect his people from such practices.

Well he'd be right if he did think that about usury and he certainly used it as an excuse to kill Jews. There's always an excuse, whether it be usury or Zionism.
Actually it as Charles 2 who first allowed usury as we know it today as part of the deal for being financed to take up the English throne.


I'm surprised that you're a so keen on Longshanks though, since he was the first person to think Wales was worth taking and did so.

[trampie09]

Its always been the same everybody loves Wales and wants a piece of the country, whether its Longshanks back in the day or the huge amount of white flight good life immigrants in modern times, something like a quarter of the current population of Wales was born in England.