Corbyn still doesn't get it, but Jess Phillips does.

[life on mars]

Labour went from 209 seats at the 1983 General Election to exactly double that number 14 years later and a thumping majority, even though they attracted less of the popular vote than the Tories managed last week for their 365 seats.

For all fans of the red and blue teams: you keep voting for one or other side of a duopoly. If they were football teams then aside from the different coloured strips the sponsors names on them would be identical. Most prominent across the chest would read City of London Usurers 'cause those charlatans run the show. The same mobsters have submerged not just Blighty but the entire world in inextinguishable debts.

Scotland in 2010?

Party Seats:

Labour 41
Liberal 11
SNP 6
Conservative 1

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Scotland in 2010?

Party Seats:

Labour 41
Liberal 11
SNP 6
Conservative 1

The collapse of the labour vote in Scotland made it even more important that labour kept its west Midlands and northern heartlands

It didn't and unless it changes , its had it

[jon1959]

Kier Starmer making a powerful pitch as the unity candidate:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...cal-government

He has to be in the leadership team even if he isn't leader. Impressive, serious and passionate.

[life on mars]

Kier Starmer making a powerful pitch as the unity candidate:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...cal-government

He has to be in the leadership team even if he isn't leader. Impressive, serious and passionate.

I would say he is the seriously best skilled one to take this on , I fear Labour maybe obsessed with picking a particular northern based gender leader , as its seen as the right thing to do, rather than focussing on selecting the best skilled candidate to deliver effective oppistion , this is about to become the most crtical decision in Labours lifetime.

I also think they should wait and seek more membership from a broader spectrum of supporters to ensure there is a balance of view.

[Rjk]

There is a move by the right of the labour party to use this defeat to jettison all of the progressive policies brought in under Corbyn. Even ones which have broad support amongst the public as they are so scared of the influence of the tabloid press they are going to effectively let Murdoch write their next manifesto.
This must be resisted. Yes labour must be better at operating in this environment, but they have some really good policies under Corbyn that I would hate to see them lose

[the other bob wilson]

Another bloke who just doesn't get it;-

https://twitter.com/i/status/1207244101667524610

https://twitter.com/RichardBurgon/st...91063027720192

[jon1959]

There is a move by the right of the labour party to use this defeat to jettison all of the progressive policies brought in under Corbyn. Even ones which have broad support amongst the public as they are so scared of the influence of the tabloid press they are going to effectively let Murdoch write their next manifesto.
This must be resisted. Yes labour must be better at operating in this environment, but they have some really good policies under Corbyn that I would hate to see them lose

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Another bloke who just doesn't get it;-

https://twitter.com/i/status/1207244101667524610

https://twitter.com/RichardBurgon/st...91063027720192

With him in the labour party we have no chance

The tories will screw things up , just stand back and say we told you so whilst in the meantime offering a credible alternative , we wont get that with Corbyn's tribe

[Elwood Blues]

That Michael Spicer bit was hilarious

So are the ones on Jo Swinson and Boris I just watched.

Apparently Burgon is thinking of standing for deputy leader and will be supporting Rebecca Long Bailey
as leader.

Do they ever learn?

[the other bob wilson]

There is a move by the right of the labour party to use this defeat to jettison all of the progressive policies brought in under Corbyn. Even ones which have broad support amongst the public as they are so scared of the influence of the tabloid press they are going to effectively let Murdoch write their next manifesto.
This must be resisted. Yes labour must be better at operating in this environment, but they have some really good policies under Corbyn that I would hate to see them lose

I wouldn't argue with much of what you say about Labour's policies, I think they'd be quite some way behind two other subjects (Corbyn and Brexit) if people were asked why they didn't vote Labour. However, I keep hearing this claim about them having public support, is there any real evidence out there that this is true or is it wishful thinking?

I had a quick look, but couldn't find anything on line on the subject, but there was this poll before the vote that said voters thought Labour had lots of policies, but only a fifth of those asked thought they were "well thought through".

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...ies-have-publi

I find that disappointing because I thought Labour had some very good policies (even if it was all a bit scattergun), but I think they should be sure that they really did have the level of support to justify the claims we're hearing.

[jon1959]

There is this for 2017 where the Labour Manifesto plans were popular with the public:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7949471.html

And this for the 2019 Manifesto proposals:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9214276.html

YouGov asked about a lot of policies that made in it into the manifesto at the start of November, and generally they are pretty, or very popular.

The tax rises on the rich are actually the most popular policy YouGov polled: The most popular is the 50 per cent tax rate for earnings over £123,000: 64 per cent of voters support that, with just 20 per cent opposed and 16 per cent not sure.

A 45 per cent rate for earnings over £80,000 is similarly popular: 60 per cent support and just 23 per cent oppose.

Concerns that voters would oppose tax rises on a bracket they one day hope to aspire to seem to be, frankly, not true.

The party's nationalisation plans are also broadly popular: 56 per cent support nationalising railways and just 22 per cent oppose. Water companies 50 per cent support and just 25 per cent oppose. Utilities like gas and electricity are supported by 45 per cent – though Labour's policy is less ambitious than this and relates to the national grid and publicly owned competitors.

The most high-profile announcement on broadband is a bit more complicated: voters aren't as sure about nationalising Openreach, with 32 per cent supporting and 31 per cent opposed – not an unpopular policy by any means. But the ends of the policy: free broadband for all, is widely supported. 62 per cent support the idea and 22 per cent oppose it.

The plans discussed by John McDonnell on Friday to overhaul corporate governance and make boards one third elected workers have also been very positively received: 54 per cent support these policies and 21 per cent oppose them.

What to make of all this? The public are absolutely not scared of government intervention and quite like Labour's socialist platform. These policies individually range from quite popular to ridiculously popular.

Of course, Labour is still far behind in the polls, with the Tories averaging around 10 point lead. But it very difficult to find any evidence to suggest that Labour's policy platform is causing that.

[Organ Morgan.]

Labour loving Remoaners have taken last week's hammering to heart. The reds deserved that shoeing for trying to subvert the 2016 referendum result.

I noticed that very nearly a third of those eligible to vote didn't bother last Thursday.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Labour loving Remoaners have taken last week's hammering to heart. The reds deserved that shoeing for trying to subvert the 2016 referendum result.

I noticed that very nearly a third of those eligible to vote didn't bother last Thursday.

Were you one of them and were you a Remoaner?

[life on mars]

There is a move by the right of the labour party to use this defeat to jettison all of the progressive policies brought in under Corbyn. Even ones which have broad support amongst the public as they are so scared of the influence of the tabloid press they are going to effectively let Murdoch write their next manifesto.
This must be resisted. Yes labour must be better at operating in this environment, but they have some really good policies under Corbyn that I would hate to see them lose

As long as they make fundable and dont hurt normal taxpayers

[Organ Morgan.]

Were you one of them and were you a Remoaner?

I've been a no show on all voting matters since 1997. I was a leave fan but didn't bother as I thought, and still think, it'll be a Brexit in name only fudge. By the way, did you (or anyone who voted) take my advice to have a shufti at the ballot paper for last week's alleged secret ballot?

[cyril evans awaydays]

I've been a no show on all voting matters since 1997. I was a leave fan but didn't bother as I thought, and still think, it'll be a Brexit in name only fudge. By the way, did you (or anyone who voted) take my advice to have a shufti at the ballot paper for last week's alleged secret ballot?

I agree. Secret ballot is for the fairies as the state cross references the ballot paper number with your voting card. If I voted for someone considered by the state to be on the margins I would be nervous about what that state intended to do with that information. In reality the barricades would long be up before the ballot box if the country ever got into this situation so don't engage with democracy with fear. This isn't Russia!

[Organ Morgan.]

Ta for responding. There was a big push to get people to vote post the 2001 General Election when abstainers accounted for just 0.1% less than the percentage Blair's victorious Labour Party attracted and the PTB realised the whole shebang's legitimacy was in peril. It had no effect on me as I had concluded voting was a futile exercise years prior. We'll never know for sure whether each vote is checked but it's reasonable to assume they are as a true secret ballot would be simple to institute. As for the fear factor, if that was the issue then I certainly wouldn't post stuff here or elsewhere re Bilderberg, Kalergi, The Protocols, the intriguing Kamloops affair featuring dear old Liz and Phil and the like.

[the other bob wilson]

There is this for 2017 where the Labour Manifesto plans were popular with the public:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7949471.html

And this for the 2019 Manifesto proposals:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9214276.html

YouGov asked about a lot of policies that made in it into the manifesto at the start of November, and generally they are pretty, or very popular.

The tax rises on the rich are actually the most popular policy YouGov polled: The most popular is the 50 per cent tax rate for earnings over £123,000: 64 per cent of voters support that, with just 20 per cent opposed and 16 per cent not sure.

A 45 per cent rate for earnings over £80,000 is similarly popular: 60 per cent support and just 23 per cent oppose.

Concerns that voters would oppose tax rises on a bracket they one day hope to aspire to seem to be, frankly, not true.

The party's nationalisation plans are also broadly popular: 56 per cent support nationalising railways and just 22 per cent oppose. Water companies 50 per cent support and just 25 per cent oppose. Utilities like gas and electricity are supported by 45 per cent – though Labour's policy is less ambitious than this and relates to the national grid and publicly owned competitors.

The most high-profile announcement on broadband is a bit more complicated: voters aren't as sure about nationalising Openreach, with 32 per cent supporting and 31 per cent opposed – not an unpopular policy by any means. But the ends of the policy: free broadband for all, is widely supported. 62 per cent support the idea and 22 per cent oppose it.

The plans discussed by John McDonnell on Friday to overhaul corporate governance and make boards one third elected workers have also been very positively received: 54 per cent support these policies and 21 per cent oppose them.

What to make of all this? The public are absolutely not scared of government intervention and quite like Labour's socialist platform. These policies individually range from quite popular to ridiculously popular.

Of course, Labour is still far behind in the polls, with the Tories averaging around 10 point lead. But it very difficult to find any evidence to suggest that Labour's policy platform is causing that.

Thanks Jon. I wouldn't place too much store in figures from two and a half years ago, but am heartened by the ones from the Independent article. Unless the sample size is very small, the sort of margins talked about with some of those policies seem clear cut enough to me for Labour to assume their popularity - especially if they are backed up by their own polling.

The negative side of it is that the conclusion I would make is that Labour would have been far better served by doing something similar to 1997 when they produced a card with a list of six policies they would be held to account on if they weren't achieved. I'm not saying that this would have changed the outcome, but the attitude seemed to be that as each poll showed them still lagging a long way behind, they felt they could come out with one more policy which would make all of the difference and so they were not taken seriously by large sections of the electorate.

[City123]

Thanks Jon. I wouldn't place too much store in figures from two and a half years ago, but am heartened by the ones from the Independent article. Unless the sample size is very small, the sort of margins talked about with some of those policies seem clear cut enough to me for Labour to assume their popularity - especially if they are backed up by their own polling.

The negative side of it is that the conclusion I would make is that Labour would have been far better served by doing something similar to 1997 when they produced a card with a list of six policies they would be held to account on if they weren't achieved. I'm not saying that this would have changed the outcome, but the attitude seemed to be that as each poll showed them still lagging a long way behind, they felt they could come out with one more policy which would make all of the difference and so they were not taken seriously by large sections of the electorate.

Electorally, one of the best things Blair did was that pledgecard. Under-promising is probably better than over-promising as it sounds more believable and you're less vulnerable to "Well how are you going to pay for all this?"

[trampie09]

There is a move by the right of the labour party to use this defeat to jettison all of the progressive policies brought in under Corbyn. Even ones which have broad support amongst the public as they are so scared of the influence of the tabloid press they are going to effectively let Murdoch write their next manifesto.
This must be resisted. Yes labour must be better at operating in this environment, but they have some really good policies under Corbyn that I would hate to see them lose

Yip

[trampie09]

The vast majority of tory voters are educational under achievers ?

It's not a surprise but it's a worry for the labour party

Yip

[Rjk]

IMG_20191219_141929.jpg

Labour were in an impossible place with Brexit they would have lost votes by picking a side. They tried to play it down the middle and pleased nobody.
It seems to be this and the general dislike of Corbyn (nicely cultivated by relentless negative press coverage) that are the main factors.
The policies much lower down

[jon1959]

IMG_20191219_141929.jpg

Labour were in an impossible place with Brexit they would have lost votes by picking a side. They tried to play it down the middle and pleased nobody.
It seems to be this and the general dislike of Corbyn (nicely cultivated by relentless negative press coverage) that are the main factors.
The policies much lower down

I agree.

Also the thing with that poll is that a good number of the 'blue' responses could also be mainly about Brexit. Amazing that 'reports in the media' got a 1. How else did the majority of respondents form their opinions about the man - opinions that changed from 2017!

[jon1959]

Thanks Jon. I wouldn't place too much store in figures from two and a half years ago, but am heartened by the ones from the Independent article. Unless the sample size is very small, the sort of margins talked about with some of those policies seem clear cut enough to me for Labour to assume their popularity - especially if they are backed up by their own polling.

The negative side of it is that the conclusion I would make is that Labour would have been far better served by doing something similar to 1997 when they produced a card with a list of six policies they would be held to account on if they weren't achieved. I'm not saying that this would have changed the outcome, but the attitude seemed to be that as each poll showed them still lagging a long way behind, they felt they could come out with one more policy which would make all of the difference and so they were not taken seriously by large sections of the electorate.

The problem with the pledge card idea is that the (much better funded) Tories would have swamped Labours with a single pledge card that said 'Get Brexit Done!' - which was the single biggest issue in the election. I think Labour started the campaign genuinely thinking that a full and costed (even if that is disputed) manifesto would make the policy-free Tory version look out of touch and lacking ambition. Instead the policy proposals got very little traction - both parties were accused of wish listing - but the Tories had one single overwhelming policy focus and Labour appeared to be churning them out without thought, priority or a real price tag. But as far as the manifesto proposals went, I think they were still a positive and not a reason for Labour's losses. Brexit was, and Corbyn was (unlike in 2017 - so something changed).

[life on mars]

Sir Keir Starmer at centre of Wikipedia 'millionaire' row ahead of expected Labour leadership bid ?? is it true ,is he too middle class to Lead Labour ?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a4317411.html