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This is what Public Health England say.Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
“There is no evidence on the interchangeability of the Covid-19 vaccines although studies are under way.” Considering people were complaining that the Pfizer and Oxford vaccines were both "rushed" (they weren't, there was data available from tens of thousands of patients and compared against a control group), God knows how people will be able to defend this step to anti-vaxxers.
Yes, but usually the doctor points out if you can't take certain medicines while taking others. The reason the doctor knows, it's been tested.Di9d no one ever take 2 different medicines for an illness?
Seems to me that if you take both and they work in different ways then you are doubling your chances that if one isn't so effective for you then the other one will be.
They aren't going to fight each other.
It hasn't been tested. Why are other countries not recommending this at present?
The article I posted has scientists saying that there is no data to backup the Government's theory. Public Health England themselves say “There is no evidence on the interchangeability of the Covid-19 vaccines although studies are under way.”
For what it is worth. I don't think many (if any) will get a mixture of vaccines. I would be happy to be a guinea pig, but I wouldn't be happy seeing an elderly person (or carer of the old person) have to make an on-the-spot decision after a nurse points out that the vaccine in her hand is different from the one she had 12 weeks ago (again, not a lot of data on spacing vaccines 12 weeks apart).
Scientists are not sitting still for it, they will want to see actual data before changing a theory into a recommendation. That's how science works.
Dr Tony Fauci head of infectious diseases USA government has said the UK is wrong to delay 2nd dose of Pfizer vaccine, there is no evidence and they will not be doing it.
At this point, we don't know if the UK is right or wrong in theory. They are wrong, though, to recommend a different schedule of vaccine roll out that is backed by zero data. As someone else said, this strikes me as an act of sheer brilliance, or a brave cock-up that, at worst, could see us suffer longer with the pandemic than other nations who are slower at vaccinating, but are following the schedules as tested in the clinical trials.
Everyday I get more depressed at the way our home governments are handling this crisis. What concerns me about the change of tack with vaccines is that what they are doing is unproven, and this mass vaccination programme, the biggest the UK has ever done is going against the recommended dose regimes of the manufacturers. The experts have defended the action by saying that the data supports a 12 week interval between doses. There is some evidence that it does for the AZ vaccine, although its not what AZ recommend. There is no evidence for the Pfizer vaccine. In clinical trials 52% get a response from first dose, but Pfizer or anyone else doesn't know how long it lasts as the second jab was given at 3 weeks and showed a 95% long lasting response. The Vaccine experts went back to the Pfizer data and said one dose gives a 90% response and they are confident it will last 12 weeks ( but no evidence).
The 90% figure was obtained by extracting from the data all those patients who tested positive or showed symptoms within 10/14 days after the jab as they would not have built up an immunity. In real life what they say is rubbish because there will always be people who will get Covid shortly after having a jab.
50 million people will be vaccinated in UK, we know both vaccines work well when given at recommended dose intervals. Yet we are going to do it on a wing and a prayer with an unproven dose regime. Lord help us
I don't recall saying there were any trials. Read what I actually said and don't put your own interpretation on it to suit your own agruments.
AND PLEASE DON'T USE CAPITALS TO SPEAK TO ME, AS I'M SURE YOU ARE AWARE IT IS DEEMED AS SHOUTING ON THE INTERNET AND IS CONSIDERED OFFENSIVE.
I said that in the article ROBW posted it states that both vaccines can be used . It is not recommended but it is not impossible. I also stated that the head Medical people had approved the use of both. That is a fact.
My only other comment was on about the actions of media and news items which is my opinion and you will not change it.
So what is your problem with what I said?
Oh and I'm not your mate!
This is last chance saloon, they have to get this rollout right. Only 1.6 million to do in Wales, surely we could get it done in a month or so? I still can’t believe they are not doing teachers asap, keep banging on how crucial it is schools are open, but dont mention the teachers getting jabs? There’s probably not even that many over 50....
Agree regarding teachers.
Yes the nurses, doctors, surgeons, paramedics are doing a fantastic job, but who's looking after their kids?
Key workers shirley
As I mentioned in an earlier post above, surely this constitutes an unlicensed use of a medicinal product? Who takes ultimate responsibility for this - normally it would be the physician who prescribes the medicine, but in this case....?
Dude, what you said was that it made sense to mix the vaccines. How am I misinterpreting that?
Here is the quote just so that you are CLEAR. And Capitals denote emphasis, not only shouting. But, let's not digress.although it is recommended that this should happen only if the first one given is not available, which makes sense.
So, what are you basing this on considering there have been NO CLINICAL TRIALS? And, again, to avoid upset I have used capital letters to emphasise the point. I am not shouting.
No other country is advocating the mixing of vaccines. The Head of the US Medical agency says there is no data to back up the UK's approach, and Public Health England also made the statement that there is no evidence at the moment. Are you arguing for the sake of arguing? Is that what you are doing?
There is little doubt to me that, in mixing the vaccines, in elongating the time between vaccines and in doing both without clinical trial and evidence, that the Government will shoulder the responsibility should things go wrong. The worst situation would be that we have a sizeable proportion of the populace vaccinated, but would have to go back to square one should the approach result in a lower efficacy rate for either/both vaccines meaning that a large proportion of the vulnerable are no longer immune as a result of the divergence.
This isn't a political comment, but imagine if we suddenly saw England needed to buy another 100 million doses in 4-6 months because this untrialled approach only provided short term immunity. This looks to be a desperate stab in the dark, and I am now starting to wonder if there are things bubbling under the surface (e.g. higher mortality with the new strain, more mutations, the emergence of a strain that is no longer covered by the vaccine) that is forcing the Government to act
a) unscientifically
b) unilaterally
I didn't say that, I said that the people quoted in the article quoted by TOBW said that they should not be mixed but in the absence of a second dose of the first then the other could be used. That is not me saying it, that is TOBW citing an article that says that. If you needed the second a shot and it was not available then I take it you would not accept the alternative. fine that would be your choice.
Yes it seems that way to me too. Next time I have a headache, I'm taking the whole box of pills because it's logical that it will make me feel better quicker.Di9d no one ever take 2 different medicines for an illness?
Seems to me that if you take both and they work in different ways then you are doubling your chances that if one isn't so effective for you then the other one will be.
They aren't going to fight each other.
Why not take them all now, stop you getting a headache in the first place? But only if all the 4 chief medical officers in the UK say its
OK to do it.
Yes it does seem to be use of an unlicensed medicine and to the best of my knowledge the prescriber is still responsible as they know they are acting outside of the license. Further the government is blatantly advertising this unlicensed use.
Ive written to our minister of health in Wales and asked that he ensures when patients are offered the Pfizer vaccine they are told ahead of the jab that it is not being given in accordance with the manufacturer's protocol, that the 12 week dose schedule is unproven, although experts believe it should be effective.
The strategy being adopted for a mass vaccination programme is flawed. There is pressure to get mass vaccination done and in the rush the basics are being swept aside. This is all to make use of a 8/9 week window where those patients who should be returning for a second jab are being displaced by those needing a first.
After that period there is no gain and all risk as the population of the UK is being given an unproven schedule. And worse that window is already being lost. 1m people vaccinated in 20+ days indicates a lack of urgency, and another day lost yesterday. Seems we only have a pandemic 5 days a week.
You said it. I quoted it direct from your post.
If you read what I said, I would be very happy to take part in a trial that mixed the vaccines. I put myself forward for other trials but wasn't selected. What I did say was that it would be unfair to pass the burden of making a choice onto the patient at short notice.
Which other countries are advocating mixing the vaccines? And what data backs this up as being effective and safe?
I had a look on the MHRA website. There is no Marketing Authorisation as it is an emergency approval. The product information now says second jab 'after 3 weeks'
Amazed to see reports over the weekend that the Chinese government are still denying the virus started in China (wuhan).....let’s hope one day the truth comes out whatever it is
England going into a lockdown. Boris will be on tele at 8pm to tell you all that we will have the virus beat in 12 weeks time thanks to a vaccine strategy that has not been tested anywhere in the world. World leaders. Getting Brexit done. 70,000 dead.
When the number of cases are increasing at an alarming rate, and NHS staff are going sick in their thousands, the government has no alternative than to go into full lockdown. It's the only thing that works. Of course the vaccine is a way out but in the meantime we will just have to get on with it even though it will be more difficult for some than others.
The vaccine strategy is worrying however but, on the face of it, there is some sense in the mass of the population having some immunity by receiving the first dose sooner than they otherwise would have had.
Cases have been rising at an alarming rate for months.
As for the vaccine. What we know. Both vaccines produce a certain level of immunity when the second dose is administered 21 days after the first.
What we don't know. The level of immunity if the first dose is administered 84 days after the first.
The Government has decided to go with the thing we don't know, rather than the thing we do know.
I notice that Sturgeon has already stuck Scotland into a full lockdown this lunchtime and closed the schools also until February.
Whatever happens in Boris's speech this evening it dosn't really affect us i guess as we're already in one.
Aside from closing the schools nationwide i'm not really sure what further restrictions can be implemented?
The cynic in me (that's a big part) thinks the gap extension between doses is purely a government attempt to reduce the R rate. Someone somewhere has done a few calculations that shows having twice as many people with ~54% immunity is more effective in reducing the R rate than half of them having ~94%.
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