Coronavirus update - NO MORE RESTRICTIONS

[Vindec]

What type of evidence would you like? The Government during the first wave saying 20,000 deaths would be a catastrophe, other countries of similar population and density having a much lower death rate? Do you not thing a large majority of those 100,000 deaths is due to the negligence and slow reactions of this government?

Why have Japan, South Korea, Taiwan all done better than us despite being closer to the epicentre? Why does even the US have lower deaths per capita than us?

Which part of that 100,000 being the fault of the government do you disagree with?

I would like the evidence to support your contention that 100000 deaths have been caused by negligence. It's not a difficult request; you either have it or you don't. I couldn't be clearer. All you are attempting to do is divert me from your original assertion that 100000 deaths have been caused by negligence. Your statements imply that every single death has been caused by negligence and all I am asking for is proof that your assertions are accurate. You now seem to be changing tack claiming the large majority of deaths are caused by by negligence. Stop being slimy. Just admit you are wrong.

[Croesy Blue]

I would like the evidence to support your contention that 100000 deaths have been caused by negligence. It's not a difficult request; you either have it or you don't. I couldn't be clearer. All you are attempting to do is divert me from your original assertion that 100000 deaths have been caused by negligence. Your statements imply that every single death has been caused by negligence and all I am asking for is proof that your assertions are accurate. You now seem to be changing tack claiming the large majority of deaths are caused by by negligence. Stop being slimy. Just admit you are wrong.

Sorry mate yeah only about 80,000 of the deaths have been caused by negligence fomr the government. Glad you are here to hold the real villians to account while sticking up for the little men running the country like a dodgy business!

I'm not sure what sort of proof you want other than what's in the news every day.

Or would you like to wait until the enquiry into this happens?

[Hilts]

Where do they get them from.

https://news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject....tions-12200667

[Feedback]

What type of evidence would you like? The Government during the first wave saying 20,000 deaths would be a catastrophe, other countries of similar population and density having a much lower death rate? Do you not thing a large majority of those 100,000 deaths is due to the negligence and slow reactions of this government?

Why have Japan, South Korea, Taiwan all done better than us despite being closer to the epicentre? Why does even the US have lower deaths per capita than us?

Which part of that 100,000 being the fault of the government do you disagree with?

for some reason you are quick to criticise the government for ignoring the scientists, but then choose to ignore the scientists for expediency when it suits.

The current thinking, back by genetic tracing, is that around 1300 different sources of Covid came into the UK, with quite a considerably number coming in via Heathrow without the carrier ever setting foot on UK soil. Heathrow is a significant travel hub with many of its passengers never actually venturing beyond UK border control. Closing the borders would have had little or no effect.

You conveniently ignore the density of the UK, with its major cities and the majority of its population being within 2-3 hours of each other. This has had a significant impact on the spread of the disease.

History and hindsight will show that many mistakes have been made and things could have been done better, not just by Boris and UKG, but by Drakeford and WG which is something you always ignore. A case in point is the current vaccine roll out in Wales, which is shambolic - people having their 2nd shot being cancelled is just not acceptable. Unsurprisingly you rather quiet on this particular issue.

The 4 home nations have got it wrong and the lack of joined up thinking and confusing rules that differed between the 4 nations, sometimes changing by the hour certainly didn't help. What also did not help was a large part of the UK population ignoring the advice and socialising as if nothing was happening.

There's little point in you responding, but if you do, as is your right, then in the interest of brevity why not just respond with "Labour Good, Tory Bad" which sums up just about every post you make on the subject.

[Feedback]

Watched a documentary on Taiwan the other day, they said they’ve been preparing for this type event for 20 years, they were ready.
Reckon we had been?

they have had much more experience of this than we have: SARS, MERS and so on. Its hardly surprising they are better prepared.

[Feedback]

No.

There is far more than a few basic mistakes.

This doesnt go close.

do you agree that Mark Drakeford and the Welsh government have made significant mistakes too?

[Hilts]

do you agree that Mark Drakeford and the Welsh government have made significant mistakes too?

Of course.

[lisvaneblue]

I don't know why you bother, you're trying to push water uphill

I think that applies to you as well

[Croesy Blue]

for some reason you are quick to criticise the government for ignoring the scientists, but then choose to ignore the scientists for expediency when it suits.

The current thinking, back by genetic tracing, is that around 1300 different sources of Covid came into the UK, with quite a considerably number coming in via Heathrow without the carrier ever setting foot on UK soil. Heathrow is a significant travel hub with many of its passengers never actually venturing beyond UK border control. Closing the borders would have had little or no effect.

You conveniently ignore the density of the UK, with its major cities and the majority of its population being within 2-3 hours of each other. This has had a significant impact on the spread of the disease.

History and hindsight will show that many mistakes have been made and things could have been done better, not just by Boris and UKG, but by Drakeford and WG which is something you always ignore. A case in point is the current vaccine roll out in Wales, which is shambolic - people having their 2nd shot being cancelled is just not acceptable. Unsurprisingly you rather quiet on this particular issue.

The 4 home nations have got it wrong and the lack of joined up thinking and confusing rules that differed between the 4 nations, sometimes changing by the hour certainly didn't help. What also did not help was a large part of the UK population ignoring the advice and socialising as if nothing was happening.

There's little point in you responding, but if you do, as is your right, then in the interest of brevity why not just respond with "Labour Good, Tory Bad" which sums up just about every post you make on the subject.

I don't think labour good tory bad though, I don't even know why that comes into it. I do think the response in Wales has been shambolic, especially with the vaccine.

I'm not ignoring population density though am I? Equally dense countries have got half the deaths of the uk while not having the benefit of being an island nation.

So how did all the variants get into heathrow without the carrier ever getting onto UK soil?

[surge]

In Fairness the one thing the UK has done well with is procurement of vaccines and being involved in covax which aims to give poorer countries access to vaccines.

Also we do have great scientists in this country so our sequencing of the cases has been excellent too.

COVAX, the global WHO led effort to vaccinate lower income countries, has only allocated 300m doses to Africa in total which is just 20% of the population. WHO hasn't yet approved any vaccines except Pfizer. It's all too slow.

https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1354495778769801217

We do have great scientists and supporting them will probably be seen as the best thing Boris/Cummings did, but more still needs to done to spread vaccines around the world.

[Croesy Blue]

We do have great scientists and supporting them will probably be seen as the best thing Boris/Cummings did, but more still needs to done to spread vaccines around the world.

You do have to give it to the government the way they've procured and rolled out the vaccine has been incredible.

You only have to look at the EU to see how it can be done slowly and poorly.

[Vindec]

Sorry mate yeah only about 80,000 of the deaths have been caused by negligence fomr the government. Glad you are here to hold the real villians to account while sticking up for the little men running the country like a dodgy business!

I'm not sure what sort of proof you want other than what's in the news every day.

Or would you like to wait until the enquiry into this happens?

So you now think 80000 of the 100000 deaths have been caused by the government's negligence. Where is your evidence for the 80000 deaths you now claim? I'm not defending the government; unlike some I have no attachment or link to any political Party; I'm just trying to clarify some of the outrageous statements made. What proof do I require you ask. You are the one that is making the claim and all I am asking for is your evidence that 80000 deaths have been caused by negligence. If you think making outrageous unverifiable claims amounts to holding the government to account I suggest you have failed as quoting meaningless facts is merely showing up the inadequacies of your argument. Just give up.

[goats]

I don't know why you bother, you're trying to push water uphill

I don’t know why anyone bothers knocking the government, and I agree they have been shocking most of the time, even the eat out to help out probably started the second wave ffs....but this is Britain, whoever would have been in control would have no doubt faced the same issues as we’ve run the NHS down over the last 15 years....so many things done wrong like mentioned above, not least care homes and not closing borders last March.

[Croesy Blue]

So you now think 80000 of the 100000 deaths have been caused by the government's negligence. Where is your evidence for the 80000 deaths you now claim? I'm not defending the government; unlike some I have no attachment or link to any political Party; I'm just trying to clarify some of the outrageous statements made. What proof do I require you ask. You are the one that is making the claim and all I am asking for is your evidence that 80000 deaths have been caused by negligence. If you think making outrageous unverifiable claims is holding the government to account I suggest you have failed as quoting meaningless facts is merely showing up the inadequacies of your argument. Just give up.

You're right I was being a bit hyperbolous with the 100,000 and even the 80,000, a proportion of the deaths were unavoidable. I do believe a large majority of the deaths in this country should have been avoided but I'll admit there are some mitigating factors and we can't blame the government for every death.

Maybe if we had acted quickly, hadn't underfunded our health service for years and not made the same mistakes 3 times we wouldn't have one of the worst numbers for deaths in the world though.

[Croesy Blue]

I don’t know why anyone bothers knocking the government, and I agree they have been shocking most of the time, even the eat out to help out probably started the second wave ffs....but this is Britain, whoever would have been in control would have no doubt faced the same issues as we’ve run the NHS down over the last 15 years....so many things done wrong like mentioned above, not least care homes and not closing borders last March.

I'm definitely not saying a labour government wouldn't have the same mistakes. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be an enquiry held into our response nor does it mean the government shouldn't be held accountable for what they've done. I'm also being genuine when I say previous tory governments wouldn't have botched it as bad as this one, it is genuinley the worst cabinet we've ever had by a distance.

The jobs for the boys and handing out billions to mates for track and trace etc is one of the biggest crimes going.

[surge]

The 4 home nations have got it wrong and the lack of joined up thinking and confusing rules that differed between the 4 nations, sometimes changing by the hour certainly didn't help. What also did not help was a large part of the UK population ignoring the advice and socialising as if nothing was happening.

It may be right to say that Drakeford and Sturgeon having slightly different rules about 12 year old's was wrong when clearly singing from same hymn sheet, but in practice this is often a veiled attack on devolution. Arguably, the worst each nation has done is when they had joined up thinking at the start of first wave (moving ill or untested people back into care homes) and their joined up plans for winter (proposed 5 days travel relaxation) but the best each nation has done is when it's been prepared to act more individually and boldly: Boris using the summer to give business a boost, Sturgeon going hard and early when needed especially at the start of winter, Drakeford putting whole of Wales into lockdown during winter and the better promotion of ventilation as part of the key message, NI....I still don't know enough about what they've done.

They should have been more willing to work together but, with knowledge gained up to this point, more often than not that would have meant Boris conceding ground to Sturgeon which you know was never going to happen.

[Feedback]

I don’t know why anyone bothers knocking the government, and I agree they have been shocking most of the time, even the eat out to help out probably started the second wave ffs....but this is Britain, whoever would have been in control would have no doubt faced the same issues as we’ve run the NHS down over the last 15 years....so many things done wrong like mentioned above, not least care homes and not closing borders last March.

I think in respect of closing the borders the government were on a sticky wicket. close the borders and end up with none or significantly fewer cases and the public will complain of overkill. Keep the borders open and see what happens has allowed the virus to spread.

I read an article yesterday where a professor at some London Hospital had suggested that the NHS had been underfunded since the mid 70s, so this issue transcends the political spectrum

We'll have a public enquiry post pandemic, lessons will be learned, and one of them hopefully is we need to be a little but more appreciative of both public and private healthcare provision here in the UK. Its amongst the best in the world. Another lesson learned would be to delegate immediate executive authority to the chief medical officer so decisions are based solely on science and not political expediency.

[Vindec]

You're right I was being a bit hyperbolous with the 100,000 and even the 80,000, a proportion of the deaths were unavoidable. I do believe a large majority of the deaths in this country should have been avoided but I'll admit there are some mitigating factors and we can't blame the government for every death.

Maybe if we had acted quickly, hadn't underfunded our health service for years and not made the same mistakes 3 times we wouldn't have one of the worst numbers for deaths in the world though.

I don't disagree with much of what you have said in the above comment. All I was saying was that you should avoid making unverifiable statements that bordered on the ridiculous. I'm glad we have resolved this.

[Croesy Blue]

I think in respect of closing the borders the government were on a sticky wicket. close the borders and end up with none or significantly fewer cases and the public will complain of overkill. Keep the borders open and see what happens has allowed the virus to spread.

I read an article yesterday where a professor at some London Hospital had suggested that the NHS had been underfunded since the mid 70s, so this issue transcends the political spectrum

We'll have a public enquiry post pandemic, lessons will be learned, and one of them hopefully is we need to be a little but more appreciative of both public and private healthcare provision here in the UK. Its amongst the best in the world. Another lesson learned would be to delegate immediate executive authority to the chief medical officer so decisions are based solely on science and not political expediency.

Completely agree with all of this, it's almost like everyone does have the same opinion but due to preconceived opinions on each others usernames and all of us being desperate to be right no one will ever agree

[cyril evans awaydays]

I don't disagree with much of what you have said in the above comment. All I was saying was that you should avoid making unverifiable statements that bordered on the ridiculous. I'm glad we have resolved this.

What I would say is that, even factoring in variations in how these grisly statistics are compiled, for every person who has died in Germany of a covid-related cause, two people died in the UK. It too has a structure where health care responsibility is shared between the Federal government and the lander. The decisions made, the timing and nature of restrictions, the delivery structures used both by central and devolved governments and the overall competence of those with political responsibility for key decisions must have a part to play in this.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Completely agree with all of this, it's almost like everyone does have the same opinion but due to preconceived opinions on each others usernames and all of us being desperate to be right no one will ever agree

I don't agree with the idea that in an elected democracy, responsibility and accountability for key decisions and regulation should be taken out of the hands of the people the country voted to put in place and cede it to an appointed official, no matter how qualified.

[Feedback]

Completely agree with all of this, it's almost like everyone does have the same opinion but due to preconceived opinions on each others usernames and all of us being desperate to be right no one will ever agree

you're wrong

[Feedback]

I don't agree with the idea that in an elected democracy, responsibility and accountability for key decisions and regulation should be taken out of the hands of the people the country voted to put in place and cede it to an appointed official, no matter how qualified.

Italy removed its elected officials and replaced them with technocrats in the early 2010s with quite remarkable results.

[lisvaneblue]

I think in respect of closing the borders the government were on a sticky wicket. close the borders and end up with none or significantly fewer cases and the public will complain of overkill. Keep the borders open and see what happens has allowed the virus to spread.

I read an article yesterday where a professor at some London Hospital had suggested that the NHS had been underfunded since the mid 70s, so this issue transcends the political spectrum

We'll have a public enquiry post pandemic, lessons will be learned, and one of them hopefully is we need to be a little but more appreciative of both public and private healthcare provision here in the UK. Its amongst the best in the world. Another lesson learned would be to delegate immediate executive authority to the chief medical officer so decisions are based solely on science and not political expediency.

Ive worked closely with the health service throughout my career and it is one of the best at the sharp end but much of the rest is stuck in administrative sludge. Until that is sorted we will forever be playing catch up with patients.

[cyril evans awaydays]

Italy removed its elected officials and replaced them with technocrats in the early 2010s with quite remarkable results.

Really, I thought the Prime Minister was an elected politician though his cabinet wasn't. Even so the idea of the Chief Scientific Officer instructing the Prime Minister and Parliament to implement a set of restrictive measures is totally unrealistic.