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Thread: UK Covid-19 death figures

  1. #51

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Given the relatively low population of Wales North of Merthyr, and given that the populations of Mid and small parts of North Wales attend English hospitals, the figures in Wales are probably worse than the figures indicate as many Mid Wales deaths in hospitals particularly have probably been recorded in England and appear in the English figures. (As many will know deaths are recorded at the place of death and not where the patient resides.) Also testing is relatively low in Wales meaning far fewer cases of those suffering from COVID-19 are recorded and cannot appear in the stats.

    https://www.walesdeanery.org/corpora...-locations-map

  2. #52
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    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    This is what a country "in control" looks like.

    https://www.ekathimerini.com/253318/...or-coronavirus

    12 passengers on a single flight from Qatar to Athens tested positive. As a result, Greece have banned flights from Qatar for 2 weeks.

    Greece have 2,937 cases. They have recorded 179 deaths. The UK has recorded more cases every single day in the period Mar 31 - May 17. The UK also recorded more deaths every single day between March 24th and May 24th.

    While I agree we cannot really compare countries because of different methods of recording, it would take an incredible covering act for Greece to be disguising just how they controlled the virus. This in a country where, like Spain and Italy, "touchy" greetings, large family meals, kids staying with grandparents are common place.

    Population of Greece is circa 11m. 21.66% are over 65

    UK population is 6 times that of Greece. Number of people who have died, about 200 times more.

    Remember, Greece is in a mountain of debt. It was, supposedly, screwed over by the EU. It's main industry is tourism.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ter-150-deaths

  3. #53

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    Wales locking down without England locking down would have been incredibly ineffective in my opinion. Firstly, we would have the cases of people crossing the border for work purposes. People would still be arriving in large numbers from England to Welsh beauty spots. Also, there would have been no furlough scheme - the result being that retailers would be able to continue trading in their English branches, but not the Welsh. That could, arguably, have led to shops being closed, and people being made redundant in large numbers.
    But, to a degree, what you say would have been ineffective is happening now. We are much more restricted in Wales by our lockdown than England is. Their shops are opening ours less so. Wales has more people furloughed per capita.

  4. #54

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    I don't understand why anyone would be trying so hard to absolve the government of all blame.

    I’m not trying to absolve the government of all blame. It’s record is not good when it comes to Covid. What I’m saying is that Healthcare in Wales is devolved to the Senedd, so the Senedd is responsible, not Westminster. Parliament might influence but the decisions rest with the Senedd. Surely it’s not that difficult to understand
    I’ve been at the stadium when we lose and everyone blames the ref. The ref may influence but the responsibility for getting a result rests with the team and manager....same as above

  5. #55

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Didn’t Wales, like the rest of the UK, require The Coronavirus Act before it could introduce any of the emergency powers associated with lockdown? This was passed by UK parliament on 23 March.

    I thought this act evolved lockdown powers at the same time so Wales couldn’t actually have locked down independently before this. Might be wrong as live in England now so not close to Senedd activities tbh.

  6. #56

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    This is what a country "in control" looks like.

    https://www.ekathimerini.com/253318/...or-coronavirus

    12 passengers on a single flight from Qatar to Athens tested positive. As a result, Greece have banned flights from Qatar for 2 weeks.

    Greece have 2,937 cases. They have recorded 179 deaths. The UK has recorded more cases every single day in the period Mar 31 - May 17. The UK also recorded more deaths every single day between March 24th and May 24th.

    While I agree we cannot really compare countries because of different methods of recording, it would take an incredible covering act for Greece to be disguising just how they controlled the virus. This in a country where, like Spain and Italy, "touchy" greetings, large family meals, kids staying with grandparents are common place.

    Population of Greece is circa 11m. 21.66% are over 65

    UK population is 6 times that of Greece. Number of people who have died, about 200 times more.

    Remember, Greece is in a mountain of debt. It was, supposedly, screwed over by the EU. It's main industry is tourism.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ter-150-deaths
    I’ve got family in Greece. They really hit lockdown hard. Stay at home, only leave if you have a letter or e mail authorising it. Return home ASAP, text to the police to confirm you are back home

  7. #57
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    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    But, to a degree, what you say would have been ineffective is happening now. We are much more restricted in Wales by our lockdown than England is. Their shops are opening ours less so. Wales has more people furloughed per capita.
    There is no way that furlough payments would have been handed out if Wales went it alone. The early success of the lockdown was party down to people being paid to stay at home. I also think Wales' guidelines are less effective because of Johnson's messages.

  8. #58
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    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    I’ve got family in Greece. They really hit lockdown hard. Stay at home, only leave if you have a letter or e mail authorising it. Return home ASAP, text to the police to confirm you are back home
    It's paying dividends. Did they "furlough" workers, out of interest?

  9. #59

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    Sweden has the highest death rate per capita at one point

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...te-per-capita/

    Their society is more naturally socially distanced than ours too which is why it wasn't worse.
    We don't know the whole story yet, but as i've previously said 90% of the deaths in Sweden are the over 70's
    Very poor decisions have cost their lives mostly in the Stockholm region where incompetence seems to have been very high.
    And as per usual the head advisor on the pandemic was seen sitting at a bar close to other people not following his own advise.

  10. #60

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    Didn’t Wales, like the rest of the UK, require The Coronavirus Act before it could introduce any of the emergency powers associated with lockdown? This was passed by UK parliament on 23 March.

    I thought this act evolved lockdown powers at the same time so Wales couldn’t actually have locked down independently before this. Might be wrong as live in England now so not close to Senedd activities tbh.
    Meant devolved not evolved

  11. #61

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    Didn’t Wales, like the rest of the UK, require The Coronavirus Act before it could introduce any of the emergency powers associated with lockdown? This was passed by UK parliament on 23 March.

    I thought this act evolved lockdown powers at the same time so Wales couldn’t actually have locked down independently before this. Might be wrong as live in England now so not close to Senedd activities tbh.
    Most of the key things related to control of infectious diseases are covered in the Public Health Act 1984, covering England and Wales
    The powers are very wide ranging indeed, and I would guess includes the equivalent of what we call lockdown, although I haven’t read the detail of this very large act

  12. #62

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by insider View Post
    So how could people be kept off the street and in Lockdown without the act then?
    The Public Health Act 1984

  13. #63

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    It's paying dividends. Did they "furlough" workers, out of interest?
    Not that I’ve heard, but a lot of unemployment anyhow.

  14. #64

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    The Public Health Act 1984
    it would seem that a lockdown was maybe!!!! not required but common sense wasn't being applied in the early stages.

  15. #65
    Heisenberg
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    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    Wales could have, should have, made their own decisions on lockdown. Small European countries went ahead. It doesn't sit easy but we have our own Public Health system, our own Medical officers and Scientific advisors, and our own parliament. if overall they decided to wait for England to declare lockdown or go with a UK position before acting then that's the Senedd's decision and their responsibility.
    Nothing at all to do with England, Scotland or Northern Ireland
    How were Wales supposed to enter lockdown before the UK Govt. introduced the job retention scheme and also the means for businesses and the self-employed to apply for help so that they could be financially secure during said lockdown? Seriously lisvaneblue, you seem to have an answer for everything - so I'm sure you've got something for us regarding this question.

  16. #66

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    How were Wales supposed to enter lockdown before the UK Govt. introduced the job retention scheme and also the means for businesses and the self-employed to apply for help so that they could be financially secure during said lockdown? Seriously lisvaneblue, you seem to have an answer for everything - so I'm sure you've got something for us regarding this question.
    I don't know how they were supposed to. The money side of it, which is so very important, is from UK Government.
    I'm sure the Senedd would have discussed the options and come up with what they thought best for Wales

    All I've been saying all along is that healthcare is devolved and bugger all to do with the other three nations. But some on this board seem hell bent on pulling Boris et al into it as if it's his fault, because they can't see any further than he's a Tory.

    All healthcare for Wales decisions are the responsibility of the Senedd, end of. Personally I don't think they have done a good job so far, but the game isn't over yet.

  17. #67

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Wales certainly could have made its own health rules , it even has its own medical officer

  18. #68
    Heisenberg
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    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    I don't know how they were supposed to. The money side of it, which is so very important, is from UK Government.
    I'm sure the Senedd would have discussed the options and come up with what they thought best for Wales

    All I've been saying all along is that healthcare is devolved and bugger all to do with the other three nations. But some on this board seem hell bent on pulling Boris et al into it as if it's his fault, because they can't see any further than he's a Tory.

    All healthcare for Wales decisions are the responsibility of the Senedd, end of. Personally I don't think they have done a good job so far, but the game isn't over yet.
    Exactly.

  19. #69

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Exactly.
    They couldn’t have, which is why he ignored when I asked.

    This state was caused by a stupidly late lockdown, I don’t think wales have been perfect but their message has been a lot more clear.

  20. #70

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    How were Wales supposed to enter lockdown before the UK Govt. introduced the job retention scheme and also the means for businesses and the self-employed to apply for help so that they could be financially secure during said lockdown? Seriously lisvaneblue, you seem to have an answer for everything - so I'm sure you've got something for us regarding this question.
    Yes, this bit I think was incorporated into The Coronavirus Act passed on 23rd March, which included the £12bn business assistance budget and a range of very specific new and amended legislation necessary to support a national lockdown in practice.

  21. #71

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    Most of the key things related to control of infectious diseases are covered in the Public Health Act 1984, covering England and Wales
    The powers are very wide ranging indeed, and I would guess includes the equivalent of what we call lockdown, although I haven’t read the detail of this very large act
    It doesn't have the range of powers enabled by the The Coronavirus Act 2020 (Commencement No. 1) (Wales) Regulations 2020.

    So Wales could not lockdown until Westminster decided.

  22. #72

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    I’m not trying to absolve the government of all blame. It’s record is not good when it comes to Covid. What I’m saying is that Healthcare in Wales is devolved to the Senedd, so the Senedd is responsible, not Westminster. Parliament might influence but the decisions rest with the Senedd. Surely it’s not that difficult to understand
    I’ve been at the stadium when we lose and everyone blames the ref. The ref may influence but the responsibility for getting a result rests with the team and manager....same as above
    You said:

    I agree the figures in Wales are terrible, but don't agree that we can blame the UK Government in part.

    Isn't that absolving the government of all blame?

  23. #73

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Wales certainly could have made its own health rules , it even has its own medical officer
    Does it have all the expert medical advice available to Westminster, or alternatively available only to Wales? Be careful with your reply.

  24. #74

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    I don't know how they were supposed to. The money side of it, which is so very important, is from UK Government.
    I'm sure the Senedd would have discussed the options and come up with what they thought best for Wales

    All I've been saying all along is that healthcare is devolved and bugger all to do with the other three nations. But some on this board seem hell bent on pulling Boris et al into it as if it's his fault, because they can't see any further than he's a Tory.

    All healthcare for Wales decisions are the responsibility of the Senedd, end of. Personally I don't think they have done a good job so far, but the game isn't over yet.
    And there it is, the point where your argument about how blame is apportioned between Welsh and UK Governments completely falls down. In one of your replies, you talked of small European nations who had gone it alone in taking on the virus, but, assuming your intention was to show the Welsh Government in a bad light in comparison to them, you're indulging in the same sort of comparing apples with oranges argument that UK Government apologists apply to anyone who makes direct comparisons between UK statistics and those of other European countries.

    The devolution we have is not on a par with those countries you seek to compare us to - Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are in a kind of halfway house, they have some freedom to do what they wish, but not complete freedom. As I said in a post I did about this time yesterday in this thread, it would be a different matter if Wales had full devolution, but it doesn't and so allowances have to be made for that.

  25. #75

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman View Post
    It doesn't have the range of powers enabled by the The Coronavirus Act 2020 (Commencement No. 1) (Wales) Regulations 2020.

    So Wales could not lockdown until Westminster decided.
    My original comments stemmed from the fact that people disagreed with my comments that the Senedd is solely responsible for healthcare in Wales, therefore don't blame UK gov for the mess we are in in Wales with very high incidence, general lack of testing, variable tracking, escalating variances with other home nations etc

    The 2020 Covid Act is a temporary UK wide act that sorts out some of the nitty gritty around the handling of the pandemic in the UK.

    The main Act in Wales and England for control of infectious diseases is the Public Health Act 1984. It has wide ranging powers that the Senedd could have acted upon way ahead of the March lockdown. For example control of travel, airports and ports, control of schools, and just about anything else needed to halt the spread of an infectious disease.

    What we did in Wales was go along with a UK wide uniform approach that initially was one of 'herd immunity', then, and some say too late, the lockdown
    I understand that going it alone with a lockdown may not have been that effective,( although we seem to be doing just that now compared to our near neighbours), and the issue of finance must have influenced things.

    But there was plenty we could have done under the 1984 act without closing down industry but we didn't. Right or wrong is not what Im directly concerned about. My message all along has been that Healthcare is a devolved matter and the Senedd is solely responsible for its actions. The other home countries Im sure discuss and influence our Welsh healthcare politicians and professional advisors, but the responsibility and consequences for actions rest with the Senedd

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