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Thread: UK Covid-19 death figures

  1. #61

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    Didnít Wales, like the rest of the UK, require The Coronavirus Act before it could introduce any of the emergency powers associated with lockdown? This was passed by UK parliament on 23 March.

    I thought this act evolved lockdown powers at the same time so Wales couldnít actually have locked down independently before this. Might be wrong as live in England now so not close to Senedd activities tbh.
    Most of the key things related to control of infectious diseases are covered in the Public Health Act 1984, covering England and Wales
    The powers are very wide ranging indeed, and I would guess includes the equivalent of what we call lockdown, although I havenít read the detail of this very large act

  2. #62

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by insider View Post
    So how could people be kept off the street and in Lockdown without the act then?
    The Public Health Act 1984

  3. #63

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    It's paying dividends. Did they "furlough" workers, out of interest?
    Not that Iíve heard, but a lot of unemployment anyhow.

  4. #64

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    The Public Health Act 1984
    it would seem that a lockdown was maybe!!!! not required but common sense wasn't being applied in the early stages.

  5. #65

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    Wales could have, should have, made their own decisions on lockdown. Small European countries went ahead. It doesn't sit easy but we have our own Public Health system, our own Medical officers and Scientific advisors, and our own parliament. if overall they decided to wait for England to declare lockdown or go with a UK position before acting then that's the Senedd's decision and their responsibility.
    Nothing at all to do with England, Scotland or Northern Ireland
    How were Wales supposed to enter lockdown before the UK Govt. introduced the job retention scheme and also the means for businesses and the self-employed to apply for help so that they could be financially secure during said lockdown? Seriously lisvaneblue, you seem to have an answer for everything - so I'm sure you've got something for us regarding this question.

  6. #66

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    How were Wales supposed to enter lockdown before the UK Govt. introduced the job retention scheme and also the means for businesses and the self-employed to apply for help so that they could be financially secure during said lockdown? Seriously lisvaneblue, you seem to have an answer for everything - so I'm sure you've got something for us regarding this question.
    I don't know how they were supposed to. The money side of it, which is so very important, is from UK Government.
    I'm sure the Senedd would have discussed the options and come up with what they thought best for Wales

    All I've been saying all along is that healthcare is devolved and bugger all to do with the other three nations. But some on this board seem hell bent on pulling Boris et al into it as if it's his fault, because they can't see any further than he's a Tory.

    All healthcare for Wales decisions are the responsibility of the Senedd, end of. Personally I don't think they have done a good job so far, but the game isn't over yet.

  7. #67

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Wales certainly could have made its own health rules , it even has its own medical officer

  8. #68

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    I don't know how they were supposed to. The money side of it, which is so very important, is from UK Government.
    I'm sure the Senedd would have discussed the options and come up with what they thought best for Wales

    All I've been saying all along is that healthcare is devolved and bugger all to do with the other three nations. But some on this board seem hell bent on pulling Boris et al into it as if it's his fault, because they can't see any further than he's a Tory.

    All healthcare for Wales decisions are the responsibility of the Senedd, end of. Personally I don't think they have done a good job so far, but the game isn't over yet.
    Exactly.

  9. #69

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Exactly.
    They couldnít have, which is why he ignored when I asked.

    This state was caused by a stupidly late lockdown, I donít think wales have been perfect but their message has been a lot more clear.

  10. #70

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    How were Wales supposed to enter lockdown before the UK Govt. introduced the job retention scheme and also the means for businesses and the self-employed to apply for help so that they could be financially secure during said lockdown? Seriously lisvaneblue, you seem to have an answer for everything - so I'm sure you've got something for us regarding this question.
    Yes, this bit I think was incorporated into The Coronavirus Act passed on 23rd March, which included the £12bn business assistance budget and a range of very specific new and amended legislation necessary to support a national lockdown in practice.

  11. #71

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    Most of the key things related to control of infectious diseases are covered in the Public Health Act 1984, covering England and Wales
    The powers are very wide ranging indeed, and I would guess includes the equivalent of what we call lockdown, although I havenít read the detail of this very large act
    It doesn't have the range of powers enabled by the The Coronavirus Act 2020 (Commencement No. 1) (Wales) Regulations 2020.

    So Wales could not lockdown until Westminster decided.

  12. #72

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    Iím not trying to absolve the government of all blame. Itís record is not good when it comes to Covid. What Iím saying is that Healthcare in Wales is devolved to the Senedd, so the Senedd is responsible, not Westminster. Parliament might influence but the decisions rest with the Senedd. Surely itís not that difficult to understand
    Iíve been at the stadium when we lose and everyone blames the ref. The ref may influence but the responsibility for getting a result rests with the team and manager....same as above
    You said:

    I agree the figures in Wales are terrible, but don't agree that we can blame the UK Government in part.

    Isn't that absolving the government of all blame?

  13. #73

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Wales certainly could have made its own health rules , it even has its own medical officer
    Does it have all the expert medical advice available to Westminster, or alternatively available only to Wales? Be careful with your reply.

  14. #74

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    I don't know how they were supposed to. The money side of it, which is so very important, is from UK Government.
    I'm sure the Senedd would have discussed the options and come up with what they thought best for Wales

    All I've been saying all along is that healthcare is devolved and bugger all to do with the other three nations. But some on this board seem hell bent on pulling Boris et al into it as if it's his fault, because they can't see any further than he's a Tory.

    All healthcare for Wales decisions are the responsibility of the Senedd, end of. Personally I don't think they have done a good job so far, but the game isn't over yet.
    And there it is, the point where your argument about how blame is apportioned between Welsh and UK Governments completely falls down. In one of your replies, you talked of small European nations who had gone it alone in taking on the virus, but, assuming your intention was to show the Welsh Government in a bad light in comparison to them, you're indulging in the same sort of comparing apples with oranges argument that UK Government apologists apply to anyone who makes direct comparisons between UK statistics and those of other European countries.

    The devolution we have is not on a par with those countries you seek to compare us to - Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are in a kind of halfway house, they have some freedom to do what they wish, but not complete freedom. As I said in a post I did about this time yesterday in this thread, it would be a different matter if Wales had full devolution, but it doesn't and so allowances have to be made for that.

  15. #75

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman View Post
    It doesn't have the range of powers enabled by the The Coronavirus Act 2020 (Commencement No. 1) (Wales) Regulations 2020.

    So Wales could not lockdown until Westminster decided.
    My original comments stemmed from the fact that people disagreed with my comments that the Senedd is solely responsible for healthcare in Wales, therefore don't blame UK gov for the mess we are in in Wales with very high incidence, general lack of testing, variable tracking, escalating variances with other home nations etc

    The 2020 Covid Act is a temporary UK wide act that sorts out some of the nitty gritty around the handling of the pandemic in the UK.

    The main Act in Wales and England for control of infectious diseases is the Public Health Act 1984. It has wide ranging powers that the Senedd could have acted upon way ahead of the March lockdown. For example control of travel, airports and ports, control of schools, and just about anything else needed to halt the spread of an infectious disease.

    What we did in Wales was go along with a UK wide uniform approach that initially was one of 'herd immunity', then, and some say too late, the lockdown
    I understand that going it alone with a lockdown may not have been that effective,( although we seem to be doing just that now compared to our near neighbours), and the issue of finance must have influenced things.

    But there was plenty we could have done under the 1984 act without closing down industry but we didn't. Right or wrong is not what Im directly concerned about. My message all along has been that Healthcare is a devolved matter and the Senedd is solely responsible for its actions. The other home countries Im sure discuss and influence our Welsh healthcare politicians and professional advisors, but the responsibility and consequences for actions rest with the Senedd

  16. #76

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    My original comments stemmed from the fact that people disagreed with my comments that the Senedd is solely responsible for healthcare in Wales, therefore don't blame UK gov for the mess we are in in Wales with very high incidence, general lack of testing, variable tracking, escalating variances with other home nations etc

    The 2020 Covid Act is a temporary UK wide act that sorts out some of the nitty gritty around the handling of the pandemic in the UK.

    The main Act in Wales and England for control of infectious diseases is the Public Health Act 1984. It has wide ranging powers that the Senedd could have acted upon way ahead of the March lockdown. For example control of travel, airports and ports, control of schools, and just about anything else needed to halt the spread of an infectious disease.

    What we did in Wales was go along with a UK wide uniform approach that initially was one of 'herd immunity', then, and some say too late, the lockdown
    I understand that going it alone with a lockdown may not have been that effective,( although we seem to be doing just that now compared to our near neighbours), and the issue of finance must have influenced things.

    But there was plenty we could have done under the 1984 act without closing down industry but we didn't. Right or wrong is not what Im directly concerned about. My message all along has been that Healthcare is a devolved matter and the Senedd is solely responsible for its actions. The other home countries Im sure discuss and influence our Welsh healthcare politicians and professional advisors, but the responsibility and consequences for actions rest with the Senedd
    No it stemmed from you saying we canít attribute blame to the U.K. government for the deaths in wales.

  17. #77

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    And there it is, the point where your argument about how blame is apportioned between Welsh and UK Governments completely falls down. In one of your replies, you talked of small European nations who had gone it alone in taking on the virus, but, assuming your intention was to show the Welsh Government in a bad light in comparison to them, you're indulging in the same sort of comparing apples with oranges argument that UK Government apologists apply to anyone who makes direct comparisons between UK statistics and those of other European countries.

    The devolution we have is not on a par with those countries you seek to compare us to - Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are in a kind of halfway house, they have some freedom to do what they wish, but not complete freedom. As I said in a post I did about this time yesterday in this thread, it would be a different matter if Wales had full devolution, but it doesn't and so allowances have to be made for that.
    You know my views...ie healthcare is devolved, its not a halfway house, its devolved just as Education is. Please tell me what authority Westminster has in law to make decisions about the healthcare of the people in Wales.

    And when it comes to small Europen countries that are members of the EU, many would say that they are not truly independent because of the EU regulations that they have to follow. But that's a different argument

  18. #78

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    No it stemmed from you saying we can’t attribute blame to the U.K. government for the deaths in wales.

    That's splitting hairs, you get my drift. If the Senedd is responsible for calling the healthcare shots, its responsible for the consequences

  19. #79

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    You know my views...ie healthcare is devolved, its not a halfway house, its devolved just as Education is. Please tell me what authority Westminster has in law to make decisions about the healthcare of the people in Wales.

    And when it comes to small Europen countries that are members of the EU, many would say that they are not truly independent because of the EU regulations that they have to follow. But that's a different argument
    Hang on, you're getting into real hair splitting territory now. This should be a straightforward matter, is Wales "devolved" in the same manner as, say, Luxembourg, Malta and Iceland are? I think I'm right in saying they all have full autonomy in a way that we don't.

  20. #80

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    That's splitting hairs, you get my drift. If the Senedd is responsible for calling the healthcare shots, its responsible for the consequences
    But the majority of deaths were caused by lock down not happening early enough.

    Even knowing that fact you think we canít blame the U.K. government?

  21. #81

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    If something is devolved it means...and Im sure you know this... that the responsibility has been passed on...ie to the Senedd

    If the Senedd chooses to be led by England then it does not take away the fact that the Senedd holds total responsibility for our healthcare. Nothing to do with England or the rest of the UK

    So I think it may not be me that is mind numbingly stupid. Don't let our Welsh politicians fob you off by thinking that Westminster is somehow to share the blame for the mess it has got us in.
    Crumbs off the table, hordes of old English immigrants have flooded the Welsh NHS and this is not really financially accounted for by the UK Government, we should have more money from the UK Government to deal with the white flight immigration crisis that causes a huge strain on our services.

  22. #82

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    But the majority of deaths were caused by lock down not happening early enough.

    Even knowing that fact you think we canít blame the U.K. government?
    Wales decided to go along with a uniform UK approach that started as one of herd immunity. It could have done things differently re the 1984 act, but choose to stay with a UK approach.

  23. #83

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    Wales decided to go along with a uniform UK approach that started as one of herd immunity. It could have done things differently re the 1984 act, but choose to stay with a UK approach.
    But it couldn't lock down until the UK did right?

  24. #84

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    But it couldn't lock down until the UK did right?
    Off the top of my head..it could have starting testing earlier, ( WHO was shouting test, test, test), It have quarantined all Wales residents whop arrived at UK airports, It could have isolated Care Homes, It could have been first in the queue for PPE.... Point is we decided to go along with a UK approach. Our decision, our responsibility

  25. #85

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    Off the top of my head..it could have starting testing earlier, ( WHO was shouting test, test, test), It have quarantined all Wales residents whop arrived at UK airports, It could have isolated Care Homes, It could have been first in the queue for PPE.... Point is we decided to go along with a UK approach. Our decision, our responsibility
    So the Welsh Government have done worse than the U.K. government then?

  26. #86

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    They couldn’t have, which is why he ignored when I asked.

    This state was caused by a stupidly late lockdown, I don’t think wales have been perfect but their message has been a lot more clear.
    Hindsight and all that. No one seemed to care so much mid March, it just got very serious all of a sudden. Rugby and our match with Leeds was on until the last minute almost, some 45000 people left the uk to go ski ing in the alps mid March, all of which were pointless as all the slopes closed as they arrived....if the public were so adamant for a quicker lockdown we could have shouted about it then, but we didn’t at all.

  27. #87

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    Wales decided to go along with a uniform UK approach that started as one of herd immunity. It could have done things differently re the 1984 act, but choose to stay with a UK approach.
    Welsh rugby stopped the Wales v Scotland match the English led UK authorities wanted it played.

  28. #88

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by lisvaneblue View Post
    Off the top of my head..it could have starting testing earlier, ( WHO was shouting test, test, test), It have quarantined all Wales residents whop arrived at UK airports, It could have isolated Care Homes, It could have been first in the queue for PPE.... Point is we decided to go along with a UK approach. Our decision, our responsibility
    The English in the name of the UK stole our testing kits and PPE.

  29. #89

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    Quote Originally Posted by goats View Post
    Hindsight and all that. No one seemed to care so much mid March, it just got very serious all of a sudden. Rugby and our match with Leeds was on until the last minute almost, some 45000 people left the uk to go ski ing in the alps mid March, all of which were pointless as all the slopes closed as they arrived....if the public were so adamant for a quicker lockdown we could have shouted about it then, but we didnít at all.
    We didnít care much but we arenít elected into highest office to make these decisions.

    The Tory party were told to close pubs, restaurants and schools at the start of February.

    The start of lockdown was as half arsed as can be even at the start. People were told to maybe stay home but pubs, gyms and restaurants stayed open for another 2 weeks.

  30. #90

    Re: UK Covid-19 death figures

    The English led Westminster Government pushed for herd immunity that seemed like something that could have come straight out of the Nazi playbook to me.

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