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Thread: NHS app

  1. #1

    NHS app

    apparently it has just been revealed that the government spent 11.8 million pounds on the app.
    some people I know involved in software development for big companies say that seems like an awful lot for what it was/time spent developing it.

  2. #2
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    apparently it has just been revealed that the government spent 11.8 million pounds on the app.
    some people I know involved in software development for big companies say that seems like an awful lot for what it was/time spent developing it.
    Yes, that is a big wad of cash. They obviously threw the kitchen sink at it because it was important for coming out of lockdown. Now it is shit, it isn't really that important after all. People will fall for the line they spin every single time.

  3. #3

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    apparently it has just been revealed that the government spent 11.8 million pounds on the app.
    some people I know involved in software development for big companies say that seems like an awful lot for what it was/time spent developing it.
    I believe they were paying top whack money to get it down ASAP, which is understandable

    it wasnt working, so they had 3 options

    keep on developing it, spending more money and it still not working
    release a app that didnt do the job ( putting us at risk )
    write if off and look at something else ( the google / apple app )

    with all of them options they were dammed with whatever they decided to do

  4. #4

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    I believe they were paying top whack money to get it down ASAP, which is understandable

    it wasnt working, so they had 3 options

    keep on developing it, spending more money and it still not working
    release a app that didnt do the job ( putting us at risk )
    write if off and look at something else ( the google / apple app )

    with all of them options they were dammed with whatever they decided to do
    Which begs the question of why didn't they go with what was already being used? I was critical at the time and it now appears that criticism was warranted.

  5. #5
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    I believe they were paying top whack money to get it down ASAP, which is understandable

    it wasnt working, so they had 3 options

    keep on developing it, spending more money and it still not working
    release a app that didnt do the job ( putting us at risk )
    write if off and look at something else ( the google / apple app )

    with all of them options they were dammed with whatever they decided to do
    I heard they were beavering away.

    I guess you haven't worked in software development

  6. #6
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Which begs the question of why didn't they go with what was already being used? I was critical at the time and it now appears that criticism was warranted.
    At the time, I defended their actions. I was foolish, and wet behind the ears, and assumed they knew what they were doing. A lot of wealthy software developers walking around at the moment.

  7. #7

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    Yes, that is a big wad of cash. They obviously threw the kitchen sink at it because it was important for coming out of lockdown. Now it is shit, it isn't really that important after all. People will fall for the line they spin every single time.
    i'm guessing once a big organisation approaches a supplier that supplier has the upper hand in charging whatever if can , as they know the requirement critical and urgent , I'm sure the same happens with everything procured in this crises, very sad really providers will want to make a buck for government and NHS at such critical times with folk dying .

  8. #8

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    I guess you haven't worked in software development
    What difference does that make ?

  9. #9

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Which begs the question of why didn't they go with what was already being used? I was critical at the time and it now appears that criticism was warranted.
    indeed

    the apple / google app made sense

  10. #10
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    What difference does that make ?
    Quite a big one.

  11. #11
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    i'm guessing once a big organisation approaches a supplier that supplier has the upper hand in charging whatever if can , as they know the requirement critical and urgent , I'm sure the same happens with everything procured in this crises, very sad really providers will want to make a buck for government and NHS at such critical times with folk dying .
    You are clearly guessing. A supplier has failed to deliver, and our Government has paid £11.8m for them to not deliver.

  12. #12

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    Quite a big one.
    really ?

  13. #13
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    really ?
    Yes. Do you know the going rate for developing an app that doesn't even work?

  14. #14

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    Yes. Do you know the going rate for developing an app that doesn't even work?
    isnt that a bit of a " how long is a piece of string ", would depend on how many hours the developers had put into the project, were they paid extra due to a deadline and needing more people working around the clock on it

  15. #15
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    isnt that a bit of a " how long is a piece of string ", would depend on how many hours the developers had put into the project, were they paid extra due to a deadline and needing more people working around the clock on it
    How many development hours does £11.8m buy you?

  16. #16

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    How many development hours does £11.8m buy you?
    $200 a hour

    add to that a massive uplift as it was rather urgent

  17. #17
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    $200 a hour

    add to that a massive uplift as it was rather urgent
    OK mate, it's clear you are just making it up as you go along.

  18. #18

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    At the time, I defended their actions. I was foolish, and wet behind the ears, and assumed they knew what they were doing. A lot of wealthy software developers walking around at the moment.
    I remember us debating it!

    It seemed a strange thing to do, when there was already something that could have worked. I got the feeling at the time that the government were hell bent on trying to show they could be world leaders in something, possibly to get one over on a certain political and trade union, but let's not go there. Dare I say it, but every time I hear how we're going to be world beaters at something, I get a rather underwhelming feeling, a feeling that a cockup is imminent. If something works from elsewhere, use it.

  19. #19

    Re: NHS app

    I think the more pertinent questions are around the business and IT architecture around the "app". Did NHSX contract a single supplier to provide the end-to-end service with a single supplier responsible and accountable for delivery of the outcome? Or did it have a procurement strategy of contracting for "lots" where a few small to medium enterprises were contracted to provide different bits of the service and NHSX was the integrator and took on the risk for delivering the outcome rather than paying a premium to the prime contractor to deliver it on their behalf and setting that risk/reward into the contract. Until you know what £12m was supposed to deliver and who owned the risk I think we are all pissing in the wind.

  20. #20
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    I think the more pertinent questions are around the business and IT architecture around the "app". Did NHSX contract a single supplier to provide the end-to-end service with a single supplier responsible and accountable for delivery of the outcome? Or did it have a procurement strategy of contracting for "lots" where a few small to medium enterprises were contracted to provide different bits of the service and NHSX was the integrator and took on the risk for delivering the outcome rather than paying a premium to the prime contractor to deliver it on their behalf and setting that risk/reward into the contract. Until you know what £12m was supposed to deliver and who owned the risk I think we are all pissing in the wind.
    There were a total of 15 contractors involved.

  21. #21
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    I remember us debating it!

    It seemed a strange thing to do, when there was already something that could have worked. I got the feeling at the time that the government were hell bent on trying to show they could be world leaders in something, possibly to get one over on a certain political and trade union, but let's not go there. Dare I say it, but every time I hear how we're going to be world beaters at something, I get a rather underwhelming feeling, a feeling that a cockup is imminent. If something works from elsewhere, use it.
    The issue is, the Apple/Google app doesn't work that well either. It cannot distinguish whether you have been 1m or 3m away from a covid infected person. In fairness to the Government, this is what they were aiming to achieve but their app works on 75% of android phones and a whopping 4% of Apple phones.

    It is incredible the rate at which the Government rush out to tell us good news is on the way, we have a game changer coming up. Only, to then go back and say "um, no, and it isn't that important anyway". I reckon Boris Johnson tells his wife/girlfriend/mistress (delete if appropriate, no? Ok then) their Christmas presents well in advance of the big day.

  22. #22

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    There were a total of 15 contractors involved.
    So who was the integrator and who took the risk, one of those contractors or NHSX? If it was the latter, and that would fit as the Government Digital Service mantra was big IT (think Accenture, IBM etc) bad......Small and Medium Enterprises using Agile development tools good. The problem being that government has not recreated quality in-house programme and integration management teams so instead of paying 25% mark up for an integrator to own some of the risk the government teams full of starry eyed idealists take on that role. if, as you say, there were 15 contractors involved then NHSX would own the integration of the APIs between the user interface and the back-end systems when all the 15 developers were blaming each other as none of them wants to end up with contractual liaibility!

  23. #23
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    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    So who was the integrator and who took the risk, one of those contractors or NHSX? If it was the latter, and that would fit as the Government Digital Service mantra was big IT (think Accenture, IBM etc) bad......Small and Medium Enterprises using Agile development tools good. The problem being that government has not recreated quality in-house programme and integration management teams so instead of paying 25% mark up for an integrator to own some of the risk the government teams full of starry eyed idealists take on that role. if, as you say, there were 15 contractors involved then NHSX would own the integration of the APIs between the user interface and the back-end systems when all the 15 developers were blaming each other as none of them wants to end up with contractual liaibility!
    It would be unlikely that a single contractor would take all the risk and I would suspect it would be down to NHSX. I've worked on projects with 2 contractors and the conference calls are painful when it comes to identifying which cog is not working. 15 contractors, well, it would be easy for a CGI (say) or Unisys type company to go missing with fingers pointing elsewhere.

  24. #24

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    The issue is, the Apple/Google app doesn't work that well either. It cannot distinguish whether you have been 1m or 3m away from a covid infected person. In fairness to the Government, this is what they were aiming to achieve but their app works on 75% of android phones and a whopping 4% of Apple phones.

    It is incredible the rate at which the Government rush out to tell us good news is on the way, we have a game changer coming up. Only, to then go back and say "um, no, and it isn't that important anyway". I reckon Boris Johnson tells his wife/girlfriend/mistress (delete if appropriate, no? Ok then) their Christmas presents well in advance of the big day.
    It begs the question of whether they looked at what was available, its flaws and how to improve them or whether it decided to go their own way entirely.

    Agreed with your summing up about Government information!

  25. #25

    Re: NHS app

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    The issue is, the Apple/Google app doesn't work that well either. It cannot distinguish whether you have been 1m or 3m away from a covid infected person. In fairness to the Government, this is what they were aiming to achieve but their app works on 75% of android phones and a whopping 4% of Apple phones.
    .
    The detection distance ability is governed by the version of Bluetooth used in the phone. Only BT version 5.1 can detect <1m, other older versions 3m. I am guessing that the majority of i-phones have older BT version chips installed.

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