Clive Tyldesley calls for co-commentators to receive training on racial stereotyping

[Don Corleone]

That may well be but he was a massive racist

Calling someone a fecking stupid lazy ****** is more than just a slip of the tongue

As was saying the chinese have a great contraception service ......the women are all ugly and look the same

And on celebrity big brother when one of the celebrities put a scarf around her face he said oh my god you are not going to bomb me are you ?

A right old racist git

That may well be but has been already posted he did a lot to promote black players in the late 70’s when racism was far more rife. Do you judge a man more on his actions than his words?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

That may well be but has been already posted he did a lot to promote black players in the late 70’s when racism was far more rife. Do you judge a man more on his actions than his words?

Both

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Both

Actions tend to weigh more though.

In the 70s with the backdrop of racism, it took balls for Atkinson to really push those black players - incredibly risky because if they'd flopped the backlash would have been immense. The gamble clearly paid off and had a massive, massive effect upon getting more black footballers into the game and also in changing and fighting racism amongst fans.

Have his actions had more benefit fighting racism than his stupid racist comments triggered racism? I'd say yes. Doesn't make his comments acceptable or excuse them.

As I said, quite the paradox. If Atkinson was a dyed in the wool NF style racist, then he'd have gone the safe route and not played Regis et al. Whilst the comments Sludge highlighted were clearly unacceptable, I've not heard of anyone within football citing examples of racism whist actively managing.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Actions tend to weigh more though.

In the 70s with the backdrop of racism, it took balls for Atkinson to really push those black players - incredibly risky because if they'd flopped the backlash would have been immense. The gamble clearly paid off and had a massive, massive effect upon getting more black footballers into the game and also in changing and fighting racism amongst fans.

Have his actions had more benefit fighting racism than his stupid racist comments triggered racism? I'd say yes. Doesn't make his comments acceptable or excuse them.

As I said, quite the paradox. If Atkinson was a dyed in the wool NF style racist, then he'd have gone the safe route and not played Regis et al. Whilst the comments Sludge highlighted were clearly unacceptable, I've not heard of anyone within football citing examples of racism whist actively managing.

Whatever he did for black players it doesn't excuse him for making a deeply offensive comment about Desailly.

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Whatever he did for black players it doesn't excuse him for making a deeply offensive comment about Desailly.

No it doesn't, as I said.

[Rjk]

Actions tend to weigh more though.

In the 70s with the backdrop of racism, it took balls for Atkinson to really push those black players - incredibly risky because if they'd flopped the backlash would have been immense. The gamble clearly paid off and had a massive, massive effect upon getting more black footballers into the game and also in changing and fighting racism amongst fans.

Have his actions had more benefit fighting racism than his stupid racist comments triggered racism? I'd say yes. Doesn't make his comments acceptable or excuse them.

As I said, quite the paradox. If Atkinson was a dyed in the wool NF style racist, then he'd have gone the safe route and not played Regis et al. Whilst the comments Sludge highlighted were clearly unacceptable, I've not heard of anyone within football citing examples of racism whist actively managing.

Do you really believe that he was pusing those black players out of the goodness of his heart,or because he thought they could make HIM successful?

There is definitely a bias in how black players are described though, a lot of the time from people who would be shocked if anyone thought they were being racist.
When Naby Keita was signed from Leipzig he was variously described as being like Ngolo Kante or Patrick Vieira amongst others neither of whom he's really anything like as a player, the only similarity is he's black.
We have deep ingrained prejuduces about what black players can be and what they can do. Yaya Toure is another good example, always described predominantly as "powerful" when really he was phenomenally skillful. A premier league scout/analyst sais his game is most similar to Zinedine Zidane than anyone else, but you would never see that kind of comparison made.

American sports went through a similar learning curve - once upon a time quarterbacks were overwhelmingly white, but these days more and more black quarterbacks are coming through each year.

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Do you really believe that he was pusing those black players out of the goodness of his heart,or because he thought they could make HIM successful?

There is definitely a bias in how black players are described though, a lot of the time from people who would be shocked if anyone thought they were being racist.
When Naby Keita was signed from Leipzig he was variously described as being like Ngolo Kante or Patrick Vieira amongst others neither of whom he's really anything like as a player, the only similarity is he's black.
We have deep ingrained prejuduces about what black players can be and what they can do. Yaya Toure is another good example, always described predominantly as "powerful" when really he was phenomenally skillful. A premier league scout/analyst sais his game is most similar to Zinedine Zidane than anyone else, but you would never see that kind of comparison made.

American sports went through a similar learning curve - once upon a time quarterbacks were overwhelmingly white, but these days more and more black quarterbacks are coming through each year.

Do you think Atkinson would have failed if he'd instead NOT used Regis et al? In that era, the safe option would have been not to use them - especially several at a time. What he did was groundbreaking which led to the groundswell of black players we know see - progress still needs to be taken with regards to other BAME sections. Can't rest on laurels.

Re comments about Keita, in what respect can it be proven that those comments were made due to subconscious racial bias and not ignorance on the part of those making the comments? There are plenty of thick pundits after all.

I'd agree with Toure wasn't always given the credit for his skill, but he was a power player too - combined physicality AND skill.

My concern about the study of commentary cited would be that was there any possible confirmation bias in the way comments were selected?

With regards to NFL, there are many position overwhelmingly belonging to one skin pigmentation or another - RBs, WRs predominently black for example. Equally, basketball. Not sure why that is, but suspect external factors play a part - for example, I'd presume that in economically deprived areas, sport is a key route out of poverty?

[ccfc_is_my_life]

As for the "Three Degrees" tag, nobody seems to have had a problem with that?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...ngham-19077873
https://taleoftwohalves.uk/featured/...-three-degrees
https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/0...ung-black-men/

The fact is, all three players received racist abuse from their own fans. It would have been incredibly easy for Atkinson to drop them, get fans off his and their backs. Instead he persisted playing them based on ability. You seem to want to ignore the importance of that - Atkinson's faith in their abilities told people, "these black players are every bit as good if not better than white players". At that point in football, that was groundbreaking.

Did he pick them because they were good players? Of course he did, would you rather they were picked as "tokens"? Their ability and Atkinson picking them based upon their ability opened the floodgates for many, I've little doubt their play inspired many of the current generation.

None of that would have happened - or more accurately, progress would have been massively delayed - without Atkinson having faith in them.

[lardy]

Do you really believe that he was pusing those black players out of the goodness of his heart,or because he thought they could make HIM successful?

Well this is it. If you've got a black player and a white player of similar ability and the manager overlooks the one of the opposite race, and does this often, then you've got to wonder.

If you've got a black player and a white player and the one of the opposite race is far better, then even a racist manager isn't going to be stupid enough not to pick him.

But this is the kind of thing that happens earlier in the selection process, when the players are getting selected/rejected in their teens.