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Thread: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

  1. #26

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Absolutely, the whole point of history is to educate and in a lot of cases teach others not repeat the actions , leaving the statues with a full breakdown of how many lives were lost and why it was done , is far more educational than erasing its history .
    Isn't that just going to teach people that if you want to be remembered and have a statue of yourself put up, you need to be responsible for X number of deaths?

  2. #27

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by light up the darkness View Post
    Apart from his ownership and mistreatment of slaves he is chiefly remembered for his exploits under Wellington. he fought in many engagements, displaying great bravery. Wellington called rough foul mouthed and irascible. He was killed in 1815 fighting at the Battle of Waterloo, leading, with only his rolled up umbrella, a crucial bayonet charge in which his division stopped d'Erlon's corps' attack against Wellingtons centre. He was the most senior officer to die at Waterloo.
    Seems that a fair number of folk in the past that were heroes of their times also had a very dark side
    I'm not at all experienced in the military but even I know you need something with a bit more firepower than an umbrella if you're running towards the enemy.

  3. #28
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    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    I'm not at all experienced in the military but even I know you need something with a bit more firepower than an umbrella if you're running towards the enemy.
    Picton.jpg

  4. #29

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Let's be honest here

    Loads of the people who argue for these statues to be left up dont do it because they want people to be educated , they dont want them protected from vandalism because it's part of history , they dont give a toss about future generations

    They previously knew next to nothing about these despicable people

    They want them preserved because they are fecking daft racists , it's that simple
    I originally didn’t want to see it removed and wasn’t to do (in my opinion) with racism. I like seeing statues for its aesthetic values. Whenever me and the mrs go away I always take note, pictures and read the plaques of the history of the statues. Always liked going through Cathays park to go past the statue there. If Picton was removed what would be there instead? And at what cost to the public.

    When it’s historical, it’s so far removed from life, for me the good and the bad doesn’t come into it? Would I look and read a statue of Genghis Khan, or Nero? Absolutely. I can still be disgusted by the person whilst in awe of the history behind it. I’ve been to the killing fields in Cambodia and sat and looked at the wall of skulls. It’s fascinating and yet it’s disgusting. For me if it’s contextualised, it’s different. It’s so far removed from my life I don’t believe it does anything than just reflect history.

    Then I’d try to think how I’d feel if it was more recent history. Take Michael Jackson. One of the most brilliant musicians of all time, he tackled climate change 20 years before most, countless charities like aids, cancer but a wrong’un it seems. Would I be happy with a statue of him up now? Absolutely not. It’s complicated where people remove themselves from the bad that didn’t affect them. Ironically a staunch BLM supporter Dave Chappelle, kind of gave support to MJ in his sticks and stones special. Admittedly MJ was never convicted.

    My personal view is that these people because they don’t see or encounter racism, don’t fold that into the thinking. They just see it as a statue.

    I’m not longer against the removal of the statue but I don’t want the thinking to become a tit-for-tat whataboutisms. Everything should be on merit but the parameters of what is merit is constantly shifting.

  5. #30

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    I originally didn’t want to see it removed and wasn’t to do (in my opinion) with racism. I like seeing statues for its aesthetic values. Whenever me and the mrs go away I always take note, pictures and read the plaques of the history of the statues. Always liked going through Cathays park to go past the statue there. If Picton was removed what would be there instead? And at what cost to the public.

    When it’s historical, it’s so far removed from life, for me the good and the bad doesn’t come into it? Would I look and read a statue of Genghis Khan, or Nero? Absolutely. I can still be disgusted by the person whilst in awe of the history behind it. I’ve been to the killing fields in Cambodia and sat and looked at the wall of skulls. It’s fascinating and yet it’s disgusting. For me if it’s contextualised, it’s different. It’s so far removed from my life I don’t believe it does anything than just reflect history.

    Then I’d try to think how I’d feel if it was more recent history. Take Michael Jackson. One of the most brilliant musicians of all time, he tackled climate change 20 years before most, countless charities like aids, cancer but a wrong’un it seems. Would I be happy with a statue of him up now? Absolutely not. It’s complicated where people remove themselves from the bad that didn’t affect them. Ironically a staunch BLM supporter Dave Chappelle, kind of gave support to MJ in his sticks and stones special. Admittedly MJ was never convicted.

    My personal view is that these people because they don’t see or encounter racism, don’t fold that into the thinking. They just see it as a statue.

    I’m not longer against the removal of the statue but I don’t want the thinking to become a tit-for-tat whataboutisms. Everything should be on merit but the parameters of what is merit is constantly shifting.
    I agree with your thoughtful points and some others (including LoM's surprisingly!)

    In the last Euro Qualifying campaign game in Budapest I went to Memento Park on the outskirts of the city. Fascinating place where many of the statues from the Soviet era that survived the wall coming down have been placed. It's curiosity factor is however placed in the context of the impact that era had on Hungary and its citizens so you are left in no doubt of the underlying evil the statues were trying to glorify.

    Contextualising these statues either in their location or another as others have said seems as an appropriate response as their mothballing or destruction as public opinion or regimes change.

    On the particular Picton statue it is interesting that there was seemingly no appetite to glorify him in the immediate aftermath of Waterloo. Perhaps even then the proximity of the Abolition of Slavery in Britain and his known sadistic acts were too close and well-known.

    Rather a century later almost at the anniversary of his death at a time when the country was in the middle of another terrible continental war and his feats of valour were still remembered when his sins were forgotten did his statue get commissioned and erected. Perhaps in his case another century on is an appropriate time to consider he has had a good run at immortality given his treatment of others.

  6. #31

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    “They want them preserved because they are fecking daft racists , it's that simple”

    What a strange thing to say ! Not worried about some poxy statue, but if you try and hide the past, HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE THE FUTURE

  7. #32

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by BLUETIT View Post
    “They want them preserved because they are fecking daft racists , it's that simple”

    What a strange thing to say ! Not worried about some poxy statue, but if you try and hide the past, HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE THE FUTURE
    To be fair, you don't need a statue to remember history.

  8. #33

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    I just don't get the point. It wouldn't be put up today but it's there, he was indeed a war hero. Put a plaque next to it detailing the bad points if needed.

    At least with it there it prompts conversation and people may look into him.

    99.9% of people didn't know it was even there to be offended by.

    If people are upset, offended or tormented by it every day then sure bring it down, personally I've never seen it or knew it was there.

    So many figures from the past lived in far darker times than we do and did things that today are disgusting. It's not feasible to remove every statue, bust or mention of them from public view.

  9. #34

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by light up the darkness View Post
    Apart from his ownership and mistreatment of slaves he is chiefly remembered for his exploits under Wellington. he fought in many engagements, displaying great bravery. Wellington called rough foul mouthed and irascible. He was killed in 1815 fighting at the Battle of Waterloo, leading, with only his rolled up umbrella, a crucial bayonet charge in which his division stopped d'Erlon's corps' attack against Wellingtons centre. He was the most senior officer to die at Waterloo.
    Seems that a fair number of folk in the past that were heroes of their times also had a very dark side
    Did he though? History is written by the victors.

  10. #35

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    The Connecticut and Massachusetts colonies offered bounties for the heads of killed hostile Indians, and later for just their scalps, during the Pequot War in the 1630s;[15] Connecticut specifically reimbursed Mohegans for slaying the Pequot in 1637.[16] Four years later, the Dutch in New Amsterdam offered bounties for the heads of Raritans.[16] In 1643, the Iroquois attacked a group of Huron pelters and French carpenters near Montreal, killing and scalping three of the French.[17]

    Do we go through history, picking out all the bad. ????

    I don’t think any family would be left untarnished

  11. #36

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCBlue View Post
    Did he though? History is written by the victors.
    SO SO TRUE.
    Like Churchill when he sunk the French ships 1200 allies died on those ships.

  12. #37

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
    SO SO TRUE.
    Like Churchill when he sunk the French ships 1200 allies died on those ships.
    I think it well known that Churchill was a horrible c*nt, no time for the man at all, bloke’s like him would drop the likes of us like a shithouse seat, horrible man.

  13. #38

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by splott parker View Post
    I think it well known that Churchill was a horrible c*nt, no time for the man at all, bloke’s like him would drop the likes of us like a shithouse seat, horrible man.
    On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
    A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.

  14. #39

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by pomeroy View Post
    On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
    A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.
    And he was a cnut shot his own people and allies but it was only a small fault after all

  15. #40

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by pomeroy View Post
    On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
    A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.
    Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Thatcher etc were all colossal 20th century figures as well, these last few months have opened our eyes to a few monsters from the past with energy and intellect, it certainly hasn’t improved their standing in history. It’s as though, if you’re British, you’ve got to regard Churchill as some kind of hero, maybe other countries who didn’t have the English version of history have different views on the man.

  16. #41

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    My own view is that in these more (marginally) enlightened times it would be a great idea to remove all statues of human beings and not erect any more. Let's face it, humans are not perfect and as much as some will inspire some folk, they will disgust others.

    Far better to erect statues of aspirations, ideals and intellectual achievements conceptually. Statues like those of the Angel of the North would suffice without having reference to actual people. Those would be better off in museums in context.

  17. #42

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorcus View Post
    My own view is that in these more (marginally) enlightened times it would be a great idea to remove all statues of human beings and not erect any more. Let's face it, humans are not perfect and as much as some will inspire some folk, they will disgust others.

    Far better to erect statues of aspirations, ideals and intellectual achievements conceptually. Statues like those of the Angel of the North would suffice without having reference to actual people. Those would be better off in museums in context.
    Leave Fred up though

  18. #43

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    One of the biggest constructions in the World, should be torn down, for what it symbolises towards slavery.

    The Colosseum, in Rome

  19. #44

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by splott parker View Post
    Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Thatcher etc were all colossal 20th century figures as well, these last few months have opened our eyes to a few monsters from the past with energy and intellect, it certainly hasn’t improved their standing in history. It’s as though, if you’re British, you’ve got to regard Churchill as some kind of hero, maybe other countries who didn’t have the English version of history have different views on the man.
    I hardly think that Thatcher was a colossal figure of the 20th. Century. A lot of great figures have their dark sides but history determines whether their existence was for the greater good. The greatest mass murderer, especially of his own people, was Stalin but he is still revered by lots of Russians as the man who defeated the evil Nazis and gave everyone a job. Tell that to the Ukrainian peasants who died in their millions through famine or the even greater millions who ended up in the Gulags. Taken into context Thatcher was just a minor figure in the scheme of things.

  20. #45

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by BLUETIT View Post

    Do we go through history, picking out all the bad. ????
    No but if there's statues up celebrating people who sold other people as commodities we consider that such a dehumanising act that their negative actions outweigh anything positive they did in their lives and we take them down.

    Also randomly typing HISTORY into Wikipedia and copy pasting is not the basis of a strong argument

  21. #46

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by pomeroy View Post
    I hardly think that Thatcher was a colossal figure of the 20th. Century. A lot of great figures have their dark sides but history determines whether their existence was for the greater good. The greatest mass murderer, especially of his own people, was Stalin but he is still revered by lots of Russians as the man who defeated the evil Nazis and gave everyone a job. Tell that to the Ukrainian peasants who died in their millions through famine or the even greater millions who ended up in the Gulags. Taken into context Thatcher was just a minor figure in the scheme of things.
    It's also widely accepted churchill was a racist . He was the right man for the job at the time but his intellect does not prevent him from being a right horrible git .

  22. #47

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by pomeroy View Post
    On the contrary I think that it is widely accepted , for all of his faults, that Churchill was a remarkable human being. A colossal figure in 20th. century history. There are many biographies of the man but as a starter I suggest you read Roy Jenkins’ fine work Churchill. Churchill’s own great works of literature such My Early Life, The History of the English Speaking Peoples, The Second World War and many others give us an insight into the breadth of his energy and intellect.
    A man of small stature but he cast a giant shadow.
    Enoch Powell was an intelligent man and an intellect but he was a horrible man

    He said how can I be a racist ? Since I have no desire to associate with black people how can I be a racist ?

  23. #48

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by BLUETIT View Post
    “They want them preserved because they are fecking daft racists , it's that simple”

    What a strange thing to say ! Not worried about some poxy statue, but if you try and hide the past, HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE THE FUTURE
    I am afraid that there is a certain section of society that are fecking daft racists and if hiding away these statues or dumping them in the dock gets them in a strop , I am all for it

    They are not interested in education . You cant educate bricks .

  24. #49

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by delmbox View Post
    No but if there's statues up celebrating people who sold other people as commodities we consider that such a dehumanising act that their negative actions outweigh anything positive they did in their lives and we take them down.

    Also randomly typing HISTORY into Wikipedia and copy pasting is not the basis of a strong argument
    So why not take down all effigies of God? God’s instructions on how to treat slaves are in Exodus for all to read!!
    My view is that God has contributed very little of any good to mankind and therefore his many statues, paintings etc. should be summarily dispensed with.Tell that to the happy clappers!!

  25. #50

    Re: Sir Thomas Picton statue to be removed from Cardiff City Hall

    Quote Originally Posted by pomeroy View Post
    So why not take down all effigies of God? God’s instructions on how to treat slaves are in Exodus for all to read!!
    My view is that God has contributed very little of any good to mankind and therefore his many statues, paintings etc. should be summarily dispensed with.Tell that to the happy clappers!!
    I think it's different with fictional beings but if you want to start that crusade I've got no objections

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