Welsh Cup

[jimmyscoular]

I've been gone from the UK a long time. There is much that is a mystery to me.

When I was a kid, Cardiff City won the Welsh Cup all the time. It was their ticket to Europe. Eventually, as I understand it, UEFA or FIFA or someone spotted the scam and told them they couldn't compete both in the English League and the Welsh Cup. It had to be all Welsh, or all English. Obviously, City weren't going to give up the English League and the FA Cup for the delights of Port Talbot and Ton Pentre, so they gave up competing in the Welsh Cup.

Yet, I was watching some Welsh Cup Final YouTube videos tonight from the early 1990s. Cardiff lost both of them, one to Barry Town and another to Merthyr Tydfil.

Two questions:

1. When did they get booted from the Welsh Cup?

2. How the hell did they lose to Barry and Merthyr?

[the other bob wilson]

I've been gone from the UK a long time. There is much that is a mystery to me.

When I was a kid, Cardiff City won the Welsh Cup all the time. It was their ticket to Europe. Eventually, as I understand it, UEFA or FIFA or someone spotted the scam and told them they couldn't compete both in the English League and the Welsh Cup. It had to be all Welsh, or all English. Obviously, City weren't going to give up the English League and the FA Cup for the delights of Port Talbot and Ton Pentre, so they gave up competing in the Welsh Cup.

Yet, I was watching some Welsh Cup Final YouTube videos tonight from the early 1990s. Cardiff lost both of them, one to Barry Town and another to Merthyr Tydfil.

Two questions:

1. When did they get booted from the Welsh Cup?

2. How the hell did they lose to Barry and Merthyr?

1. Our last season in the Welsh Cup was 94/95.
2. Merthyr and Barry had what I would say would be regarded as contenders for their strongest ever teams when they beat us and, with the possible exception of the 1930s, we were in our weakest phase ever during both games.

My recollection is that it was Alan Evans and the FAW who were the driving forces behind us stopping playing in the Welsh Cup as they were concerned about losing their right to play in European competitions, so they put pressure on the likes of the Welsh Football League clubs, Newport, Merthyr and Bangor to join their new National League - I can't remember if UEFA were issuing ultimatums at the time, but, maybe mistakenly, I've always thought Mr Evans in particular used that threat to push forward the FAW agenda.

[Its been emotional]

Merthyr beat Italian team Atalanta in the mid eighties in a European tie. They had a good a non-league side as the old fourth division teams. Big intimidating crowds and a real community team spirit.

[Whisperer]

Sounds like a case of discrimination here not letting us compete in our own cup. look into it Mehmet.

[Steve the Tea]

My recollection is that Alun Evans and the other leaders of FAW, in their desire to keep Wales as a fully autonomous nation in football circles, caused shockwaves throughout the nation's football. The choice for Wales' professional clubs was to stay in the English football pyramid (and no European football) or join the Welsh pyramid system. Great pressure was put upon the Welsh professional clubs to conform. The issue was further confused in that in the 1920's Cardiff City (and other Welsh clubs) had been invited by the English authorities to join the English football system.

When Newport Co, after being made bankrupt and reforming in 1989, sought re-admission to the English pyramid they were forced to play home games, firstly 80 miles from Newport at Moreton-in -Marsh and then Gloucester City. A couple of other clubs were placed in the resultant ludicrous position of being barred from playing in the English pyramid from grounds in Wales.

For decades Welsh clubs playing in English competitions were prevented from playing in the Welsh Cup and the route to European football. The only alternative to bring this stand-off to a close was for Wales' professional clubs to resign from the English pyramid and consign themselves to playing in what was, in effect, the Welsh Premier League. For clubs like Cardiff City, a professional club playing before potential crowds of upwards of 20,000 in the FL, the choice was stark. Give this up for the handful of spectators the top division of the Welsh Premier. It would have killed the club as overnight players on professional contracts could not have had them met.

For a brief time Wales' professional clubs played in the newly constituted FAW Premier Cup but that was short-lived. Now Welsh clubs playing in the English pyramid have no route to European football via the FAW but through the English pyramid.

StT.
<><

[Steve the Tea]

My recollection is that Alun Evans and the other leaders of FAW, in their desire to keep Wales as a fully autonomous nation in football circles, caused shockwaves throughout the nation's football. The choice for Wales' professional clubs was to stay in the English football pyramid (and no European football) or join the Welsh pyramid system. Great pressure was put upon the Welsh professional clubs to conform. The issue was further confused in that in the 1920's Cardiff City (and other Welsh clubs) had been invited by the English authorities to join the English football system.

When Newport Co, after being made bankrupt and reforming in 1989, sought re-admission to the English pyramid they were forced to play home games, firstly 80 miles from Newport at Moreton-in -Marsh and then Gloucester City. A couple of other clubs were placed in the resultant ludicrous position of being barred from playing in the English pyramid from grounds in Wales.

For decades Welsh clubs playing in English competitions were prevented from playing in the Welsh Cup and the route to European football. The only alternative to bring this stand-off to a close was for Wales' professional clubs to resign from the English pyramid and consign themselves to playing in what was, in effect, the Welsh Premier League. For clubs like Cardiff City, a professional club playing before potential crowds of upwards of 20,000 in the FL, the choice was stark. Give this up for the handful of spectators the top division of the Welsh Premier. It would have killed the club as overnight players on professional contracts could not have had them met.

For a brief time Wales' professional clubs played in the newly constituted FAW Premier Cup but that was short-lived. Now Welsh clubs playing in the English pyramid have no route to European football via the FAW but through the English pyramid.

StT.
<><

This despite the fact that Derry City, a team based in Nth Ireland still plays in the PL of the Republic of Ireland and this season is still playing in the Europa Cup.

https://www.derrycityfc.net/2020/08/...vs-derry-city/

There are other cases like this in European football.

StT.
<><

[Hilts]

This despite the fact that Derry City, a team based in Nth Ireland still plays in the PL of the Republic of Ireland and this season is still playing in the Europa Cup.

https://www.derrycityfc.net/2020/08/...vs-derry-city/

There are other cases like this in European football.

StT.
<><

Thats quite right. You qualify from the system you play in.

[Kind of Blue]

It’s a different kettle of fish now but non league clubs like Merthyr in their late 80s / early 90s zenith had teams that were as good as what could be offered at the bottom end of the football league, on occasions arguably better. For players with a well paying, secure job or career outside of football, the higher end of the non league pyramid could be a more lucrative arrangement than going full time in the FL dungeon and so some clubs had a sort of USP for a certain type of player that could’ve made it as a pro (obviously not all non league players then fit that mould). That isn’t quite the same now with how the professional and semi professional game has changed in England.

If I remember correctly the FAW treated Merthyr as they did the FL Welsh clubs because it wasn’t inconceivable they would be one soon enough themselves at that time and so didn’t harangue them as they did with the county (who it felt they wanted to make an example of) or the many Welsh clubs at the time that played lower down in English non league.

I only have young memories of this period and I’m surprised it still feels a little bit under documented as a contentious period of Welsh footballing history. How serious were these external threats to Welsh football at the time or how much were these seized upon by the FAW hierarchy either for good reason, possibly with a hint of paranoia, or even cynically, I don’t know. Would make an interesting book or documentary.

Looking back from this vantage point, with the money now sloshing about in the top two English divisions, a couple of seasons of top tier English football and well in excess of a decade in the championship for the city, joining the then emerging Welsh top flight setup seems unimaginable. But as TOBW has pointed out, although we had one division winning season (albeit the old 4th) this was arguably the nadir of city’s history. I’ve thought before about how my old man must have felt like he was watching a completely different club when we went to Ninian Park in the 90s compared to what he knew in the 60s and 70s.

It doesn’t seem so outlandish to me now that at that time the city, jacks, or Wrexham were hardly pulling up any trees in the English setup. The lure of European football was a little different then too, the money has increased exponentially but the exoticism and romance of a European tie still had a bit of resonance and you could pick up a plumb fixture straight out the hat. 2k crowds in the fourth tier playing Rochdale or domestic titles, cup wins, and European fixtures against Porto or Celtic? The FAW may also have had an eye on Scottish domestic football which had a bit of a golden period, or swan-song, in the 90s and thought why not here (on a smaller scale)? Even the English premier league itself to a degree.

Taken in this and it’s context of the time I do think if you had more skilled PR, diplomacy and negotiation from the FAW a different course and future may have been possible at the time.

I may be wrong here and it might not still be the case but I also thought some of the smaller European nations had a similar setup that Welsh football had pre the mid 90s. Although Wales was the biggest country in Europe to have that arrangement where the country’s bigger clubs play in a foreign league but still enter domestic cup competition and an entry into European football. Will have to check.

[Cyncoed Slumdog]

I've been gone from the UK a long time. There is much that is a mystery to me.

When I was a kid, Cardiff City won the Welsh Cup all the time. It was their ticket to Europe. Eventually, as I understand it, UEFA or FIFA or someone spotted the scam and told them they couldn't compete both in the English League and the Welsh Cup. It had to be all Welsh, or all English. Obviously, City weren't going to give up the English League and the FA Cup for the delights of Port Talbot and Ton Pentre, so they gave up competing in the Welsh Cup.

Yet, I was watching some Welsh Cup Final YouTube videos tonight from the early 1990s. Cardiff lost both of them, one to Barry Town and another to Merthyr Tydfil.

Two questions:

1. When did they get booted from the Welsh Cup?

2. How the hell did they lose to Barry and Merthyr?

City lost to Merthyr in the final in 1950 but not since then. However, they did lose to Barry at the National Stadium in the early 90's.
Merthyr beat Newport in the final in the mid 80's at Ninian Park.

[blue matt]

I remember the Barry game at the arms park ( or Mill stadium if it was called that then )

Te Barry team were fairly decent and deserved to win, City we crap that day though

Being from Barry, felt happy for the Barry lot, as they used to be fairly die hard, little did they know what was around the corner

[J R Hartley]

Think Merthyr beat Cardiff in the quarter final. It wasnt the final. Nevertheless beating a football league dude 4-1 on their own patch was considered quite a result and it still regarded by some of their fans as one one of their finest hours in modern times.

[Cyncoed Slumdog]

I remember the Barry game at the arms park ( or Mill stadium if it was called that then )

Te Barry team were fairly decent and deserved to win, City we crap that day though

Being from Barry, felt happy for the Barry lot, as they used to be fairly die hard, little did they know what was around the corner

Although City should have won, Barry at the time had a millionaire owner (ex City player Neil O'Halloran) and were paying decent money to attract ex Football League players.

[cardiff55]

Think Merthyr beat Cardiff in the quarter final. It wasnt the final. Nevertheless beating a football league dude 4-1 on their own patch was considered quite a result and it still regarded by some of their fans as one one of their finest hours in modern times.

I was at that game and Merthyr absolutely hammered us. City were booed off the pitch. Merthyr did have a good side in the Conference then but I think that was the year we were promoted too.

[Jordi Culé]

I was at that game and Merthyr absolutely hammered us. City were booed off the pitch. Merthyr did have a good side in the Conference then but I think that was the year we were promoted too.

City were ****ing awful. They made Dai Webley look like Van Basten and Terry Boyle look like Baresi.

The train home was a ****ing nightmare. Still got mates who delight in reminding me about it.

Think the Echo sports headline was made into a t shirt by Merthyr supporters.

[jimmyscoular]

It’s a different kettle of fish now but non league clubs like Merthyr in their late 80s / early 90s zenith had teams that were as good as what could be offered at the bottom end of the football league, on occasions arguably better. For players with a well paying, secure job or career outside of football, the higher end of the non league pyramid could be a more lucrative arrangement than going full time in the FL dungeon and so some clubs had a sort of USP for a certain type of player that could’ve made it as a pro (obviously not all non league players then fit that mould). That isn’t quite the same now with how the professional and semi professional game has changed in England.

If I remember correctly the FAW treated Merthyr as they did the FL Welsh clubs because it wasn’t inconceivable they would be one soon enough themselves at that time and so didn’t harangue them as they did with the county (who it felt they wanted to make an example of) or the many Welsh clubs at the time that played lower down in English non league.

I only have young memories of this period and I’m surprised it still feels a little bit under documented as a contentious period of Welsh footballing history. How serious were these external threats to Welsh football at the time or how much were these seized upon by the FAW hierarchy either for good reason, possibly with a hint of paranoia, or even cynically, I don’t know. Would make an interesting book or documentary.

Looking back from this vantage point, with the money now sloshing about in the top two English divisions, a couple of seasons of top tier English football and well in excess of a decade in the championship for the city, joining the then emerging Welsh top flight setup seems unimaginable. But as TOBW has pointed out, although we had one division winning season (albeit the old 4th) this was arguably the nadir of city’s history. I’ve thought before about how my old man must have felt like he was watching a completely different club when we went to Ninian Park in the 90s compared to what he knew in the 60s and 70s.

It doesn’t seem so outlandish to me now that at that time the city, jacks, or Wrexham were hardly pulling up any trees in the English setup. The lure of European football was a little different then too, the money has increased exponentially but the exoticism and romance of a European tie still had a bit of resonance and you could pick up a plumb fixture straight out the hat. 2k crowds in the fourth tier playing Rochdale or domestic titles, cup wins, and European fixtures against Porto or Celtic? The FAW may also have had an eye on Scottish domestic football which had a bit of a golden period, or swan-song, in the 90s and thought why not here (on a smaller scale)? Even the English premier league itself to a degree.

Taken in this and it’s context of the time I do think if you had more skilled PR, diplomacy and negotiation from the FAW a different course and future may have been possible at the time.

I may be wrong here and it might not still be the case but I also thought some of the smaller European nations had a similar setup that Welsh football had pre the mid 90s. Although Wales was the biggest country in Europe to have that arrangement where the country’s bigger clubs play in a foreign league but still enter domestic cup competition and an entry into European football. Will have to check.

Thank you, and everyone else, for the explanations and clarifications. I did not know that the FAW wielded the knife in this. I suppose it makes sense if they really want to establish a strictly Welsh League identity. Still, it was nice while it lasted. I well remember that chilly evening in 1971 when me, my dad and an uncle or two piled into Ninian Park for the Real Madrid game. Not likely to have happened without the Welsh Cup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT-fzPyLv28

In this clip, the commentator mentions that Alan Warboys is ineligible, and that he previously scored four goals in a game against Carlisle. I was at that game, feeling adolescent hope that this amazing striker would prove an adequate replacement for my hero, John Toshack. In my memory, which I have learned can be deceptive, Warboys knocked one in during the Carlisle game from right field, well outside the penalty area.

Lovely days.