Political post.. @Yescymru

[az city]

What benefits would being in the EU give that being in the UK won't?

You're surely not serious. Look up the size of the EU single market and compare with England.

That's one of the silliest comments you've made thus far.

[blue matt]

I just don't get the point.

Maybe I'm just not Welsh enough, I've always been happy to identify as being Welsh and British, I have lived over the border previously but felt this way long before that. I know I have as much in common with someone from Bristol as I do Swansea.

I just don't get it, what am I missing?

I used to be a very strong nationalist, Welsh and nothing, as i left school i would go on pro-wales marches, my dream was a independent Wales, the FWA and MAC were inspirational to a young blue matt, fighting for our freedom, I then met a few gogs on a march, had a few beers and they really didnt like anyone from South Wales, I was welsh through and through , but to these gogs i was almost English, afterall i was from Barry, it was a eye opener for me

I then put my welshness into folliowing cardiff and wales, that was enough for me, i voted PC, job done, as welsh as welsh can be

I then met some girl on holiday, she was from Cheltenham ( so from the evil empire ) she way out of my league so i ignored the fact that she wasnt welsh, I then began to realise that it was all rather stupid, Welsh or English, it makes no difference, look at the current issue with Andy Burnham ( the great north / south divide ), Someone somewhere will decide they are hard done by by someone else, it is always someone else's fault,

I then moved down here ( near Bath ) and not many English dislike the Welsh, when we were doing well in Euro16, alot of English were supporting the Welsh, Wales is alot of people down here 2nd team, they want us to do well, afterall they are our neighbours

You can be Welsh and still British, the English are not really the evil empire

[life on mars]

1. 0.3% of the Welsh population are members of YesCymru
2. After Northern Ireland, Wales receives the most per capita under the Barnett settlement
3. Wales has the best representation of MPs per capita of all the 4 home nations

Wales doesn't do too bad being part of the union.

Let Scotland and Northern Ireland go, we can lap up the benefits.

[life on mars]

I used to be a very strong nationalist, Welsh and nothing, as i left school i would go on pro-wales marches, my dream was a independent Wales, the FWA and MAC were inspirational to a young blue matt, fighting for our freedom, I then met a few gogs on a march, had a few beers and they really didnt like anyone from South Wales, I was welsh through and through , but to these gogs i was almost English, afterall i was from Barry, it was a eye opener for me

I then put my welshness into folliowing cardiff and wales, that was enough for me, i voted PC, job done, as welsh as welsh can be

I then met some girl on holiday, she was from Cheltenham ( so from the evil empire ) she way out of my league so i ignored the fact that she wasnt welsh, I then began to realise that it was all rather stupid, Welsh or English, it makes no difference, look at the current issue with Andy Burnham ( the great north / south divide ), Someone somewhere will decide they are hard done by by someone else, it is always someone else's fault,

I then moved down here ( near Bath ) and not many English dislike the Welsh, when we were doing well in Euro16, alot of English were supporting the Welsh, Wales is alot of people down here 2nd team, they want us to do well, afterall they are our neighbours

You can be Welsh and still British, the English are not really the evil empire

Folk have a massive chip on the shoulder when it comes to England.

[az city]

If Wales was part of the EU it would be a small nation which was part of a larger union. It would also have laws made for it by officials in a capital city that wasn't Welsh.

How does that differ from what we have now?

I actually think small nations in the EU do better than Wales does vis-a-vis England. For instance, if Wales voted for a socialist government that's what it would get not a Tory one 150 miles away. Small nations are also over-represented in EU decision-making bodies.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Let Scotland and Northern Ireland go, we can lap up the benefits.

What benefits? As things stand Wales can join with Scotland in some decisions and form a united front. On our own it will be Wales vs England and England will have total control once they've got rid of the Senedd. With less to fight against, the Barnett formula will be replaced by something which makes Wales worse off.

[az city]

I don't have the data to back this up I wonder if;


Brexit supporter = No to independence
EU supporter = Yes to independence

This, I think is one of the most insightful comments in this thread.

[Citizen's Nephew]

great, so why aren't you happy with the partnership we have with England? We have a much greater say in UK affairs than we ever would in EU affairs, we have access to our largest trading partner with no customs, duties, excise or trade barriers of any kind whatsoever. We have freedom of movement and no language barriers at all.

What benefits would being in the EU give that being in the UK won't?

That's not what you've just argued. You've cited England as our partners. The UK is NI, Wales, Scotland and England. The reunification of Ireland is closer now than ever before. Scotland will likely become its own nation state. So investing in closer ties to an old-boys-network of old public school chums doesn't sound that appealing. But surely you aren't equating the EU and all the benefits of freedom of movement, trade etc with a trip across the Severn Bridge to Bristol (which, by-the-way, we could do anyway, and then decide to continue on to any European city to 'trade' freely if we so desired before - as the UK - we put the barrel in our mouth and pulled the trigger)?

I do wonder if people like yourself have ever worked in other European countries, speak any other languages or work in a profession that is Pan-European, global? Millions of people have had their European Citizenship stripped from them. I gave up feeling British after 2016. I now only consider myself Welsh. I have zero identity with any Westminster government anymore.

I want Wales to break away from crown, church and state-run systems.

There is something else too - you keep banging on about feasibility studies and the fact that the M4 bypass isn't going ahead. Two things - feasibility studies are just that, to find out if something is feasible, the other is that they can 'save' a lot of money too. It was decided that it wasn't feasible and I (and many others - see what I did there) am really pleased about that from an environmental point of view. We need more affordable social-housing in Wales and investment in public transport links way before an M4 bypass. We need to make sure that every decision is an environmental one first and start thinking of future generations instead of continuing to fck things up like this https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ke-way-for-hs2

If that isn't enough. Try reminding yourself that very few people thought the re-unification of Germany, the abolition of apartheid, the fall of the USSR were ever possible. All these things have happened in my lifetime.

[Citizen's Nephew]

edit for my previous post should read

(before we put the barrel in our mouth and pulled the trigger)

[az city]

Folk have a massive chip on the shoulder when it comes to England.

Surely you mean horse collar.

[Feedback]

It isn't even comparable.

Are you really suggesting that say the netherlands are as much controlled by the EU as we are by Westminster?

its all relative. We have devolution to decide matters than are more local in nature, and we have decisions made by Westminster that are more national in nature. and we had the EU for matters that were pan European.

The Netherlands is sovereign, but many of its laws are based on directives and regulations from the EU, however it is up to the Dutch people on how they implement them.

so in answer to your question, it depends.

[Feedback]

You asked how inward investment would occur. I proffered a solution.

You've now changed tack with some vague statement about "independence".

you offered nothing of the sort. How do you propose we cut the fiscal gap whilst competing with the Irish? We have to compete against the Irish as we are sure as hell ain't going toe to toe with the English.

[Citizen's Nephew]

What benefits? As things stand Wales can join with Scotland in some decisions and form a united front. On our own it will be Wales vs England and England will have total control once they've got rid of the Senedd. With less to fight against, the Barnett formula will be replaced by something which makes Wales worse off.

Exactly. We have a Westminster government that will break international law. I'm not too keen on a handshake agreement with any of them. Preserving the Senedd and receiving greater control is essential.

Just to say, none of this is anti-English or anti anybody. This is about Westminster and contrived parliamentary majorities (no matter what political party).

[Feedback]

You're basically giving the reasons why the UK leaving the EU is such folly, but here's my response.

Free trade with hundreds of millions. Freedom to live, work and study in Europe. I reckon that, whatever we lost on financially from Westminster would be more than made up in EU grants to improve infrastructure and make Wales a better place to do business and create jobs. Instead of an insular island that thinks it is a world leader, we'd be a part of something much bigger.

If there was independence, I reckon it wouldn't be a hard independence like some want for the UK from the EU. I think that if Wales and Scotland were both independent and were members of the EU, England would have to rethink its relationship with the EU. However, there would be something quite poetic about English people needing visas to come and live, work and holiday in Wales!

I don't disagree with the bit in bold, its why we should have remained in the EU. However, taking on board the hard Brexit we are about to experience, all the reasons given for the UK to stay in the EU (free market at its door, freedom of movement with its largest trading partner) would then apply to Wales if we were to leave the UK.

Whether you like it or not, our largest trading partner by far is England, and if England is outside of the EU then the benefits of remaining, for Wales at least, would be tiny compared to being part of the UK. If we joined the EU for free trade, we'd have tariffs, customs, duties and excise on any trade with England. Are we really advocating going into a trade war with the English - lets remember, what we export is miniscule from their point of view.

[Feedback]

You're surely not serious. Look up the size of the EU single market and compare with England.

That's one of the silliest comments you've made thus far.

our largest trading partner is England, by a country mile. you'd swap free trade with England for free trade with the EU. you're a ****ing moron, there's no other way to say it and I apologise in advance for saying it.

[Citizen's Nephew]

You're basically giving the reasons why the UK leaving the EU is such folly, but here's my response.

Free trade with hundreds of millions. Freedom to live, work and study in Europe. I reckon that, whatever we lost on financially from Westminster would be more than made up in EU grants to improve infrastructure and make Wales a better place to do business and create jobs. Instead of an insular island that thinks it is a world leader, we'd be a part of something much bigger.

If there was independence, I reckon it wouldn't be a hard independence like some want for the UK from the EU. I think that if Wales and Scotland were both independent and were members of the EU, England would have to rethink its relationship with the EU. However, there would be something quite poetic about English people needing visas to come and live, work and holiday in Wales!

So this!

[Feedback]

I used to be a very strong nationalist, Welsh and nothing, as i left school i would go on pro-wales marches, my dream was a independent Wales, the FWA and MAC were inspirational to a young blue matt, fighting for our freedom, I then met a few gogs on a march, had a few beers and they really didnt like anyone from South Wales, I was welsh through and through , but to these gogs i was almost English, afterall i was from Barry, it was a eye opener for me

I then put my welshness into folliowing cardiff and wales, that was enough for me, i voted PC, job done, as welsh as welsh can be

I then met some girl on holiday, she was from Cheltenham ( so from the evil empire ) she way out of my league so i ignored the fact that she wasnt welsh, I then began to realise that it was all rather stupid, Welsh or English, it makes no difference, look at the current issue with Andy Burnham ( the great north / south divide ), Someone somewhere will decide they are hard done by by someone else, it is always someone else's fault,

I then moved down here ( near Bath ) and not many English dislike the Welsh, when we were doing well in Euro16, alot of English were supporting the Welsh, Wales is alot of people down here 2nd team, they want us to do well, afterall they are our neighbours

You can be Welsh and still British, the English are not really the evil empire

I've yet to meet any English man or woman who harbours this mythical dislike of the Welsh. In fact, a lot of the English I speak to love Wales and its people.

the dislike is a one way street, they really only like to beat us a rugby, and then only the southerners.

[Feedback]

I actually think small nations in the EU do better than Wales does vis-a-vis England. For instance, if Wales voted for a socialist government that's what it would get not a Tory one 150 miles away. Small nations are also over-represented in EU decision-making bodies.

Wales has been a one party socialist state for 20+ years and we are falling further and further behind.

What happens if Cardiff votes for a Lib-dem government but Wales votes Labour - should Cardiff seek independence as well?

[Citizen's Nephew]

our largest trading partner is England, by a country mile. you'd swap free trade with England for free trade with the EU. you're a ****ing moron, there's no other way to say it and I apologise in advance for saying it.

Ad hominum. You've just lost all credibility and proven that you can't debate or are even worthy of any more time and energy on this thread.

[Feedback]

What benefits? As things stand Wales can join with Scotland in some decisions and form a united front. On our own it will be Wales vs England and England will have total control once they've got rid of the Senedd. With less to fight against, the Barnett formula will be replaced by something which makes Wales worse off.

unlike Scotland and most certainly Northern Ireland, Welsh parties have typically been Welsh flavours of the same UK party e.g. tory, lib-dem, Labour.

I've never seen England v Wales v Scotland in Westminster. I'm not saying it does not happen, but UK politics is thankfully party driven and not driven by purported ethnic lines. **** that, who wants to be Belgium or Bosnia.

[Feedback]

Ad hominum. You've just lost all credibility and proven that you can't debate or are even worthy of any more time and energy on this thread.

whatever

[cyril evans awaydays]

our largest trading partner is England, by a country mile. you'd swap free trade with England for free trade with the EU. you're a ****ing moron, there's no other way to say it and I apologise in advance for saying it.

I think that's a reasonable conclusion. Not sure about the relative affluence of Wales, its size or its ability to stand on its own feet. I presume a Welsh nation would apply to be part of the EU single market and customs union. Most of the small nation beneficiaries of this are those breaking up from soviet structures in central and eastern Europe. Being part of and trading with the EU whilst having to do it through the non-EU country of England is fraught with problems.

That's why I think the biggest leverage the UK has in its negotiations with the EU is the isolation of a member state, Ireland, if trade is less than seamless.

[Feedback]

That's not what you've just argued. You've cited England as our partners. The UK is NI, Wales, Scotland and England.

yes of course, but this Welsh independence movement is about being free from England, not about being free.

The reunification of Ireland is closer now than ever before.

I can't see the unionists ever agreeing to that, but you clearly think otherwise

Scotland will likely become its own nation state.

Likewise, I doubt this will happen in my time

So investing in closer ties to an old-boys-network of old public school chums doesn't sound that appealing.

Have you actually been to England? its got a bit more about it than the old boys network.

But surely you aren't equating the EU and all the benefits of freedom of movement, trade etc with a trip across the Severn Bridge to Bristol (which, by-the-way, we could do anyway, and then decide to continue on to any European city to 'trade' freely if we so desired before - as the UK - we put the barrel in our mouth and pulled the trigger)?

I'm pro EU, you're preaching to the choir

I do wonder if people like yourself have ever worked in other European countries, speak any other languages or work in a profession that is Pan-European, global?

been there done that, perhaps if you understood I'm for less borders not more, i'm for people not state, you might appreciate why I don't think splitting into smaller and smaller political entities is a good thing.

Millions of people have had their European Citizenship stripped from them. I gave up feeling British after 2016. I now only consider myself Welsh. I have zero identity with any Westminster government anymore.

I'm still Welsh, British and European. how can anyone take that away from me, since its a feeling. Perhaps you can explain?

I want Wales to break away from crown, church and state-run systems.

so, anarchy, libertarian in the classical sense.

There is something else too - you keep banging on about feasibility studies and the fact that the M4 bypass isn't going ahead. Two things - feasibility studies are just that, to find out if something is feasible, the other is that they can 'save' a lot of money too. It was decided that it wasn't feasible and I (and many others - see what I did there) am really pleased about that from an environmental point of view. We need more affordable social-housing in Wales and investment in public transport links way before an M4 bypass. We need to make sure that every decision is an environmental one first and start thinking of future generations instead of continuing to fck things up like this https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ke-way-for-hs2

I've not mentioned feasibility studies at all. I was just saying that what was in my mind a sensible decision (and I say this as someone who travels to and from my office in Bristol regularly) was to improve the road network. you're not going to get Mr UK out of his car, as its too ingrained in his psyche.

If that isn't enough. Try reminding yourself that very few people thought the re-unification of Germany, the abolition of apartheid, the fall of the USSR were ever possible. All these things have happened in my lifetime.

agreed, but you're talking about oppressive regimes that stifled people's freedoms. We just don't have that here in Wales. most are too busy wondering who's going to be ejected from a house/beach/jungle/song contest to take to the streets to make a difference

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Wales has been a one party socialist state for 20+ years and we are falling further and further behind.

What happens if Cardiff votes for a Lib-dem government but Wales votes Labour - should Cardiff seek independence as well?

You could argue that the UK has been a one party centre right state since 1979 if you consider that Blair's Labour moved the party to the right, ditching traditional Labour values and it has fallen behind other big nations in many ways. 7th largest economy and nose diving. Always rated poorly in basic standards of education and wealth divide, yet becoming more and more corrupt.

[Feedback]

You could argue that the UK has been a one party centre right state since 1979 if you consider that Blair's Labour moved the party to the right, ditching traditional Labour values and it has fallen behind other big nations in many ways. 7th largest economy and nose diving. Always rated poorly in basic standards of education and wealth divide, yet becoming more and more corrupt.

New Labour were centre left.