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Environmental impact, climate change and health or not (or should not be) political issues. How is building more roads and carrying on the way we are ever going to end well? We have to stop driving cars. Wales needs to become a healthier place to live and the same old ways of doing things need to change. I say if there was really the political will, we'd be able to change. The arguments of providing jobs is tenuous - that one is always suggested but is either non quantifiable or short-termism.Originally Posted by Vindec
The fact that a Westminster government can/will intervene with the Seneddd decisions (whatever political party is in power) is not even devolution let alone independence.
I'm genuinely not have a go. It's something I feel very strongly about and only becomes political because I feel I'm given a Hobson's Choice.
The main problem with the M4 scheme is the payback. I think it cost more than 1bn (which probably means 2 or 3) and doing it would add 20-30 million a year to the economy.
given that 1bn is basically our entire budget for infrastructure spending, we are never going to tie that up for 30 odd years until the m4 relief road pays for itself
who threw you a biscuitNot if you have a Welsh Nationalist tattoo you cant
we are always told by the left (Labour) that the right (Conservatives) know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, yet here you are advocating the very same approach. What about lowering pollution, or increasing personal utility and happiness instead of being stuck in traffic jams - don't they count?
The fact is the Welsh Government shied away from investing in something which requires significant investment, citing payback is just not a reasonable excuse. Payback over 30 years is not unheard of for large capital projects. The SSC required payback over 25 years or so, perhaps we shouldn't have built that as it only shaves ten minutes of journey times.
We don't have politicians that are prepared to make bold decisions, until we do then independence is pure fantasy
The SSC should NEVER have taken that long to pay back, only because of the scandalous PPI agreement did it take that long. It cost about 200 million to build yet we ended up paying well over a billion pounds more than that! I genuinely think there should be an enquiry into that deal but that's another point.
The costs for the m4 relief road were already up to 1.6 bn, with some estimates already hitting 2 bn. And the money it generated was pretty low, I can't find the exact figures again, but from memory it was about 25-30 million a year.
If it's 25 million and a 2 billion cost that becomes a payback of 80 years, there are plenty of other things the money can be spent on in south wales that will have a bigger impact. We have limited scope for borrowing and limited resources so it makes sense to spend it on what will have the biggest effect.
The congestion going past newport could be improved significantly by closing half of the newport junctions imo.
isn't this the argument why London gets all the investment? Yet almost no-one is advocating that anymore.
the UK can afford to run multiple multi Billion infrastructure projects, it would be good if they weren't all in London.
Wales can pretty much afford to do one at a time
such as HS2?
can we? such as what - adding a few pelican crossings and belisha beacons in the Valleys somewhere
London will be, by far, the main beneficiary from HS2
That is to say we COULD do a larger project, but only one probably, and that being the case it would need to have a much better case to justify doing it that the M4 relief road had, unless we want all the money tied up for the next 80 years
do you really think so? If anything, it will mean London's commuter belt extends up to the Midlands and beyond, meaning employment wealth created in London is being spent further away.
why would spending £1bn now mean our money was tied up for 80 years. if it is spent now, then it is spent, next year we have another £1bn to spend.
I dont see people moving to Birmingham, just because they can get to London 15 minutes quicker than they can now!
I dont really know the ins and outs of it to be honest, think we were comparing UK to Wales.
However what if we lower it by 0.01% lower than Ireland everytime they lower theirs?
Another issue of course is there's no guarantee that it'll help ease the flow of traffic at all, in fact most studies show road expansion leads to increased vehicle use. In 20 years time we'd be talking about the M4 Relief Road's Relief Road
..life before the Senedd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-QeKaiWulw
I meant people of Birmingham could apply for, and commute to, jobs in London
Sky News ahead of the game https://twitter.com/YesCymru/status/...611923977?s=20
Perhaps there should be a referendum and then we will see if there is demand for independence. Of course even the most ardent Yes Cymru person thinks a referendum is a good idea because everyone knows the result.
I'm not a member myself but I don't think Yes Cymru are under any illusions that they'd win that referendum now
Why don't they do so now, then, or do they?
The best thing about this thread is that its now at 8 pages.
Welsh independence needs to be talked about all the time, in mainstream media, social media, in the pub etc. There's rights and wrongs in both arguments but the only chance it'll happen is through it becoming part of every day conversation.
I doubt the current train times are perceived as being palatable with no direct train
Well said Sir. Some people seem to content with their nation underperforming. But then they probably don't see Wales as their nation.
we've had 20 years of one party rule. That is very much part of Wales' problem.
anyone will be better than Welsh Labour, even Plaid, and I say that knowing that the party is a moebius strip of stupidity.
[QUOTE=TISS;5128664]we've had 20 years of one party rule. That is very much part of Wales' problem.
Well, we can agree with that. When I voted for devolution I was under the impression that the voting system almost gauranteed a coalition government. I imagined a situation where the best talents in every party - yes including Tory but certainly not UKIP or whatever they are called these days - would work together on for the betterment of Wales. I did not vote for 1 party rule for 20 years. That has not been good for Wales. But 20 years of corrupt incompetent jingiostic Tory rule from Westminster is 10 times worse.
[QUOTE=Garth Blue;5128717]I'd agree that the current system in Cardiff or Westmister doesn't lend itself to effective government. It just leads to petty squabbling, playing to the crowd etc.
Personally I'd like to see a system brought in where yes there is scrutiny, but MPs/AMs are encouraged to collaborate. Can you imagine trying to run a business the way the country is run, when no matter what you say, half the board room have to agree and cheer it rapturously and the other half have to disagree and boo loudly?
Also currently MPs are only incentivised to get reelected in 5 years, nothing else matters. I think they should be aiming to get some kind of long term financial rewards based on the long term impact of their policies.
It would be easier to shake up the senydd than Westminster, and I think Wales could grasp the opportunity to reform the way politics works here which could give it a genuine advantage
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