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Of course you can be should you wish. But it appears that being Welsh means very little to you if you feel you have more in common with someone from Bristol. Supporting my national team means a lot to me. And the feeling when all of Wales comes together to support them is amazing.Originally Posted by TISS
I'll never forget the advert on Ely Bridge which went along the lines of "Never forget you're Welsh". But you don't have to live in Wales to know that.
Not if you have a Welsh Nationalist tattoo you cant
who threw you a biscuitNot if you have a Welsh Nationalist tattoo you cant
Thats your opinion but it really doesn't mean cultural differences are made at a line on a map. People are transient, political entities are not.
I see the important questions haven't been answered such as the currency and the deficit Wales has over England yet still some believe independence is preferable. Mention is made of the Severn Barrage. I doubt it will ever happen even if it makes more sense now than it did 40 years ago when the scheme was first suggested. Other grandiose schemes such as the Severnside Airport won't happen either for the same reason - finance. However, such schemes would be even less likely to happen if Wales were independent; there simply would not be the finance as those in Wales would already be taxed to the hilt to help with the deficit which would probably be a requirement of the UK government if the pound became the currency and also would reinforce the fact Wales could never be truly independent. Wales could never meet the stringent economic requirements of the EU either so the euro would not be an option. The main scheme that is needed - the M4 improvement around Newport - could and should happen but, wait a minute, politics seems to have got in the way. If there was the political will that scheme would be built but it seems the Welsh government are against it even though the scheme would provide jobs by promoting industrial development. So, even if independence were to happen (which it won't) could the politicians be trusted to do the right thing?
Environmental impact, climate change and health or not (or should not be) political issues. How is building more roads and carrying on the way we are ever going to end well? We have to stop driving cars. Wales needs to become a healthier place to live and the same old ways of doing things need to change. I say if there was really the political will, we'd be able to change. The arguments of providing jobs is tenuous - that one is always suggested but is either non quantifiable or short-termism.
The fact that a Westminster government can/will intervene with the Seneddd decisions (whatever political party is in power) is not even devolution let alone independence.
I'm genuinely not have a go. It's something I feel very strongly about and only becomes political because I feel I'm given a Hobson's Choice.
The main problem with the M4 scheme is the payback. I think it cost more than 1bn (which probably means 2 or 3) and doing it would add 20-30 million a year to the economy.
given that 1bn is basically our entire budget for infrastructure spending, we are never going to tie that up for 30 odd years until the m4 relief road pays for itself
we are always told by the left (Labour) that the right (Conservatives) know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, yet here you are advocating the very same approach. What about lowering pollution, or increasing personal utility and happiness instead of being stuck in traffic jams - don't they count?
The fact is the Welsh Government shied away from investing in something which requires significant investment, citing payback is just not a reasonable excuse. Payback over 30 years is not unheard of for large capital projects. The SSC required payback over 25 years or so, perhaps we shouldn't have built that as it only shaves ten minutes of journey times.
We don't have politicians that are prepared to make bold decisions, until we do then independence is pure fantasy
The SSC should NEVER have taken that long to pay back, only because of the scandalous PPI agreement did it take that long. It cost about 200 million to build yet we ended up paying well over a billion pounds more than that! I genuinely think there should be an enquiry into that deal but that's another point.
The costs for the m4 relief road were already up to 1.6 bn, with some estimates already hitting 2 bn. And the money it generated was pretty low, I can't find the exact figures again, but from memory it was about 25-30 million a year.
If it's 25 million and a 2 billion cost that becomes a payback of 80 years, there are plenty of other things the money can be spent on in south wales that will have a bigger impact. We have limited scope for borrowing and limited resources so it makes sense to spend it on what will have the biggest effect.
The congestion going past newport could be improved significantly by closing half of the newport junctions imo.
Another issue of course is there's no guarantee that it'll help ease the flow of traffic at all, in fact most studies show road expansion leads to increased vehicle use. In 20 years time we'd be talking about the M4 Relief Road's Relief Road
I meant people of Birmingham could apply for, and commute to, jobs in London
Why don't they do so now, then, or do they?
Sky News ahead of the game https://twitter.com/YesCymru/status/...611923977?s=20
Perhaps there should be a referendum and then we will see if there is demand for independence. Of course even the most ardent Yes Cymru person thinks a referendum is a good idea because everyone knows the result.
I'm not a member myself but I don't think Yes Cymru are under any illusions that they'd win that referendum now
The best thing about this thread is that its now at 8 pages.
Welsh independence needs to be talked about all the time, in mainstream media, social media, in the pub etc. There's rights and wrongs in both arguments but the only chance it'll happen is through it becoming part of every day conversation.
Well said Sir. Some people seem to content with their nation underperforming. But then they probably don't see Wales as their nation.
we've had 20 years of one party rule. That is very much part of Wales' problem.
anyone will be better than Welsh Labour, even Plaid, and I say that knowing that the party is a moebius strip of stupidity.
[QUOTE=TISS;5128664]we've had 20 years of one party rule. That is very much part of Wales' problem.
Well, we can agree with that. When I voted for devolution I was under the impression that the voting system almost gauranteed a coalition government. I imagined a situation where the best talents in every party - yes including Tory but certainly not UKIP or whatever they are called these days - would work together on for the betterment of Wales. I did not vote for 1 party rule for 20 years. That has not been good for Wales. But 20 years of corrupt incompetent jingiostic Tory rule from Westminster is 10 times worse.
[QUOTE=Garth Blue;5128717]I'd agree that the current system in Cardiff or Westmister doesn't lend itself to effective government. It just leads to petty squabbling, playing to the crowd etc.
Personally I'd like to see a system brought in where yes there is scrutiny, but MPs/AMs are encouraged to collaborate. Can you imagine trying to run a business the way the country is run, when no matter what you say, half the board room have to agree and cheer it rapturously and the other half have to disagree and boo loudly?
Also currently MPs are only incentivised to get reelected in 5 years, nothing else matters. I think they should be aiming to get some kind of long term financial rewards based on the long term impact of their policies.
It would be easier to shake up the senydd than Westminster, and I think Wales could grasp the opportunity to reform the way politics works here which could give it a genuine advantage
I doubt the current train times are perceived as being palatable with no direct train
That's exactly why I started the thread.
It's one of the most important questions and debates for Wales in the modern era.
And as you can see from this thread, people have strong and astute opinions, on both sides of the argument, and these conversations need to continue and be mainstreamed in Wales.
Unlike the Brexit debate, this thread has already shown that people care desperately and want a proper debate, not just soundbites, slogans and bullshit like the brexit debacle.
I'm loving reading the thread.
I'm enjoying reading this thread, it's stayed on point the entire way through.
I would be really interested in doing a poll along the lines of 'would you vote for independence if there was a poll tomorrow' on the main board. I'm sure it would be generally be moved to the politics board but I would love to see a general consensus. Not sure if it is something that we could do? The tide seems to have definitely turned in the past 6 months with Brexit and Covid, there is a strong points to be made.
It's good that this thread wasn't transferred to the Politics board. There it would have died a very quick death.
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