No U turn on essential goods ban

[BLUETIT]

Did you mean to reply to me with that post?

Well you mentioned lawyers I think, so I thought I'd have my 5p worth

[Heisenberg]

Well you mentioned lawyers I think, so I thought I'd have my 5p worth

5p, eh? Here, have an kiwi fruit and a granite worktop for your troubles

[lisvaneblue]

Which part in particular do you think Drakeford is breaching?

If anything Article 82 (c): 'applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage' seems to read that Drakeford has ensured that he's actively adhered to the law with his current rules that restrict the sale of items in supermarkets that other vendors cannot sell at present.

Thoughts?

You are thinking of other vendors in Wales, I’m thinking of on line competitors in particular. The act is uk wide / eu wide actually

The customer is king,he can’t buy at the supermarket even though it’s in stock for no other reason than the Senedd wants to be fair to shops closed for public health reasons so has banned the item from sale. The customer can wait two weeks or buy on line.

I predict we will see a softening this fternoon with no banned items, maybe just restricted items, a bit more difficult to purchase.

[Heisenberg]

You are thinking of other vendors in Wales, I’m thinking of on line competitors in particular. The act is uk wide / eu wide actually

The customer is king,he can’t buy at the supermarket even though it’s in stock for no other reason than the Senedd wants to be fair to shops closed for public health reasons so has banned the item from sale. The customer can wait two weeks or buy on line.

I predict we will see a softening this fternoon with no banned items, maybe just restricted items, a bit more difficult to purchase.

What do you mean by your first sentence? Can you clarify it for me, please?

Also, which part(s) of Articles 82/83 in particular were you suggesting Drakeford has gone against?

From what I've read and how I've interpreted it, it suggests the opposite of Drakeford breaking any laws.

Every retailer is entitled to sell their items online, so the market is fair for everyone - so unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious, it looks like he's done nothing wrong by not allowing supermarkets to sell non-essential items during a pandemic when high street shops are closed.

[xsnaggle]

No U turn. Gething sticking to his guns. Obviously concerned about hospital capacity/critical care beds. Could this be due to the closure of the Nightingale Hospital at the Principality Stadium without the replacement being ready until December?

Who decided to decommission it in the first place? Sems to me like a pretty stupid thing to do when all the evidence suggested a winter spike in cases.

[Heisenberg]

Who decided to decommission it in the first place? Sems to me like a pretty stupid thing to do when all the evidence suggested a winter spike in cases.

You'll be pleased to hear that the new one being built next to the Heath will be completed by winter

[xsnaggle]

The amount of traffic on the roads today, considering it is both half term and a supposed lockdown, seems to be quite a lot. Far more than the last time.
Everyone is going to work if they can't work at home, (or if their job isn't fecked because its in hospitality or non essential trading).
Even if this has any affect on the spike they won't know if it has brought down the 'r' figure for 3 weeks so I still won't be surprised if it goes on.
When it started the WG said it will end on the 9 Nov. Now they are saying it will be reviewed on the 9 Nov. If they know they have to keep it for at least 3 weeks why can't they be honest and tell people up front?
I hope it does stop as promised but I have a nasty feeling it won't. I hope I'm wrong.

[xsnaggle]

You'll be pleased to hear that the new one being built next to the Heath will be completed by winter

That is remendously reassuring. I hope it comforts the people who need it now. By the way, winter what year?

[PontBlue]

This Welsh Lockdown is the Tories fault - https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...de-westminster

[Heisenberg]

That is remendously reassuring. I hope it comforts the people who need it now. By the way, winter what year?

Maybe just be less of a dick and read this:

https://gov.wales/ps33m-new-cardiff-...id-19-facility

Then come back and find something else to moan about that has no substance.

[xsnaggle]

Maybe just be less of a dick and read this:

https://gov.wales/ps33m-new-cardiff-...id-19-facility

Then come back and find something else to moan about that has no substance.

I only asked why they decommissioned the other one. I'd have thought it would have been circumspect to have built one before you demolish the other. I didn't realise you'd take it personal!! I wouldn't wish to hurt you feelings.
I read it and it says they are building it. A board member is involved in the build and he said he 'hopes' it will be completed by the beginning of December. So in the mean while................. when does winter start for you?

[lisvaneblue]

What do you mean by your first sentence? Can you clarify it for me, please?

Also, which part(s) of Articles 82/83 in particular were you suggesting Drakeford has gone against?

From what I've read and how I've interpreted it, it suggests the opposite of Drakeford breaking any laws.

Every retailer is entitled to sell their items online, so the market is fair for everyone - so unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious, it looks like he's done nothing wrong by not allowing supermarkets to sell non-essential items during a pandemic when high street shops are closed.

In my book he’s distorting competition. The Senedd is a dominant entity managing 5% of uk population. Assuming that supermarkets are spread evenly across the uk population, at a stroke he’s reduced the availability of a significant range of goods across 5% of the UKs supermarkets. He’s not done it for public health reasons, he’s done it to be seen to be fair, or level things up for non essential closed shops in Wales and to protect them from competition while closed. Ie Commercial reasons. I don’t think this is in the Senedd remit, and if you are interested have a look at the particular responsibilities dominant entities have in Competition law. This is why I think the whole thing will be softened once he has met with the supermarkets

[BLUETIT]

Who decided to decommission it in the first place? Sems to me like a pretty stupid thing to do when all the evidence suggested a winter spike in cases.

Ducky and fawn, wanted their EGG tickets

[lisvaneblue]

What do you mean by your first sentence? Can you clarify it for me, please?

Also, which part(s) of Articles 82/83 in particular were you suggesting Drakeford has gone against?

From what I've read and how I've interpreted it, it suggests the opposite of Drakeford breaking any laws.

Every retailer is entitled to sell their items online, so the market is fair for everyone - so unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious, it looks like he's done nothing wrong by not allowing supermarkets to sell non-essential items during a pandemic when high street shops are closed.

And I should have added that he’s done this to a population who are in lockdown and unable to easily source alternatives other than on line.

[Vindec]

In my book he’s distorting competition. The Senedd is a dominant entity managing 5% of uk population. Assuming that supermarkets are spread evenly across the uk population, at a stroke he’s reduced the availability of a significant range of goods across 5% of the UKs supermarkets. He’s not done it for public health reasons, he’s done it to be seen to be fair, or level things up for non essential closed shops in Wales and to protect them from competition while closed. Ie Commercial reasons. I don’t think this is in the Senedd remit, and if you are interested have a look at the particular responsibilities dominant entities have in Competition law. This is why I think the whole thing will be softened once he has met with the supermarkets

Let's hope people in North Wales don't pop across the border to Warrington to buy "inessential items". Warrington has a high level of infection and has been given tier 3 status today.

I'm more and more convinced that the Welsh government is needing to suppress the virus by locking down early because the Nightingale hospital in the Principality Stadium has been decommissioned before the replacement facility in the Heath is completed. I presume the Principality Stadium facility has now gone as there is a match there on Saturday. Not good planning but hopefully luck will be on their side.

[Rjk]

In my book he’s distorting competition. The Senedd is a dominant entity managing 5% of uk population. Assuming that supermarkets are spread evenly across the uk population, at a stroke he’s reduced the availability of a significant range of goods across 5% of the UKs supermarkets. He’s not done it for public health reasons, he’s done it to be seen to be fair, or level things up for non essential closed shops in Wales and to protect them from competition while closed. Ie Commercial reasons. I don’t think this is in the Senedd remit, and if you are interested have a look at the particular responsibilities dominant entities have in Competition law. This is why I think the whole thing will be softened once he has met with the supermarkets

Wouldn't a dominant entity usually be someone operating in that market and with a large proportion of the market?

If the Senydd sold a line of cheaply made clothing then you may have a point, but as far as I'm aware they don't

[Heisenberg]

I only asked why they decommissioned the other one. I'd have thought it would have been circumspect to have built one before you demolish the other. I didn't realise you'd take it personal!! I wouldn't wish to hurt you feelings.
I read it and it says they are building it. A board member is involved in the build and he said he 'hopes' it will be completed by the beginning of December. So in the mean while................. when does winter start for you?

Oh, Snags, you are incapable of hurting my feelings. I was simply calling you out for being a dick because you're desperately looking for an axe to grind when it comes to Welsh Labour (be it the council or members of the Sender).

When I gave you some good news about the new nightingale hospital you gave a sarcastic reply because it wasn't what you wanted to hear. That's incredibly dickish behaviour considering the subject matter.

The Dragon's Heart nightingale hospital is massive. The new one will allow 400 patients (which is in line with estimations of what may be required, apparently) and it's located directly next to the biggest hospital in Wales, which I'm sure you would agree makes logistical sense when it comes to transferring patients.

Winter for me starts 1st December, but reports say it will be completed "before winter" and it's "on track" to meet the expected need for beds.

This sounds like good news to me and it's good news for the Chief Exec of the University Health Board... But, please, tell everyone why you think it's shit and don't forget to use a fake anecdote that will help your argument.

[Heisenberg]

In my book he’s distorting competition. The Senedd is a dominant entity managing 5% of uk population. Assuming that supermarkets are spread evenly across the uk population, at a stroke he’s reduced the availability of a significant range of goods across 5% of the UKs supermarkets. He’s not done it for public health reasons, he’s done it to be seen to be fair, or level things up for non essential closed shops in Wales and to protect them from competition while closed. Ie Commercial reasons. I don’t think this is in the Senedd remit, and if you are interested have a look at the particular responsibilities dominant entities have in Competition law. This is why I think the whole thing will be softened once he has met with the supermarkets

I don't see it at all. You mentioned competition law and then, when asked what specific law, you mentioned Article 82/83 of EU competition law.

I looked at them and couldn't find anything relevant other than something that Drakeford had actively done to meet one of those laws.

You've had a few opportunities to point out which one(s) in particular he's broken but haven't been forthcoming with a response.

I think it's fair to say that you have an opinion about this and you're going to stick with it... even though it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, I think.

[lisvaneblue]

I don't see it at all. You mentioned competition law and then, when asked what specific law, you mentioned Article 82/83 of EU competition law.

I looked at them and couldn't find anything relevant other than something that Drakeford had actively done to meet one of those laws.

You've had a few opportunities to point out which one(s) in particular he's broken but haven't been forthcoming with a response.

I think it's fair to say that you have an opinion about this and you're going to stick with it... even though it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, I think.

That's fine. You asked my views I gave it to you. Maybe worth adding that I spent much of my working life heading up the commercial side of a large pharmaceutical business and competition law and how to utilise and interpret it was a significant part of the job.

[cyril evans awaydays]

That's fine. You asked my views I gave it to you. Maybe worth adding that I spent much of my working life heading up the commercial side of a large pharmaceutical business and competition law and how to utilise and interpret it was a significant part of the job.

And there was me wondering why you thought the Senedd was a dominant entity when these are undertakings that achieve a dominant market position.

Undertakings are defined as " any natural or legal person engaged in economic activity, regardless of its legal
status and the way in which it is financed. It includes companies, partnerships, firms, businesses, individuals operating as sole traders, agricultural cooperatives, associations of undertakings (e.g. trade associations), non-profit making organisations and (in some circumstances) public entities that offer goods or services on a given market.

With your extensive knowledge of commercial law perhaps you could explain how the Senedd meets the definition of an undertaking that has become a dominant entity?

[lisvaneblue]

And there was me wondering why you thought the Senedd was a dominant entity when these are undertakings that achieve a dominant market position.

Undertakings are defined as " any natural or legal person engaged in economic activity, regardless of its legal
status and the way in which it is financed. It includes companies, partnerships, firms, businesses, individuals operating as sole traders, agricultural cooperatives, associations of undertakings (e.g. trade associations), non-profit making organisations and (in some circumstances) public entities that offer goods or services on a given market.

With your extensive knowledge of commercial law perhaps you could explain how the Senedd meets the definition of an undertaking that has become a dominant entity?

The definition is ' an entity that has economic activity' and includes the categories you mentioned. And dominance is defined at a very low% of a market.

The Wales government participates in quite a lot of commercials contracts and of course has to abide by Competition Law

[cyril evans awaydays]

The definition is ' an entity that has economic activity' and includes the categories you mentioned. And dominance is defined at a very low% of a market.

So not the Senedd then that has zero % of the non-essential goods market?

[Hilts]

QUOTE Xsnaggle.
Everyone is going to work if they can't work at home, (or if their job isn't fecked because its in hospitality or non essential trading).
Even if this has any affect on the spike they won't know if it has brought down the 'r' figure for 3 weeks so I still won't be surprised if it goes on.
When it started the WG said it will end on the 9 Nov. Now they are saying it will be reviewed on the 9 Nov. If they know they have to keep it for at least 3 weeks why can't they be honest and tell people up front?
I hope it does stop as promised but I have a nasty feeling it won't. I hope I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]

I havent watched or looked at much newstoday. Drakeford said it ends on 9th November. He was questioned and categorically said it will end.

Give us a link to this new development of it
not ending but now will be reviewed.

He was clear it ends. Businesses who have prepared to reopen will be seriously pissed off with this U turn a matter of days in.

Not good.

[the other bob wilson]

Nothing to indicate a change of policy on the official guidance page;-

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-firebr...sked-questions

[Hilts]

Nothing to indicate a change of policy on the official guidance page;-

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-firebr...sked-questions

Lets see whats on the news.

Hopefully Xsnaggle can provide a link.