Semi Ajeyi

[Tuerto]

So, you're saying that Ajayi plus all of the defenders we had at the club when we got promoted were average at Championship level? I accept that there is an argument to say that they aren't Premier League standard, but you genuinely believe that none of those you list are good Championship defenders (and weren't when we got promoted?)? All I can say is that you have very demanding standards.

Bob, do you think that your reaction on the progress of Ajayi would be a little more laissez faire if we had more of a track record of developing young players over the last ten years or so?

[Baloo]

When I started this thread my point was really that he never made a single appearance in any competition for us before being released on a Free. With that in mind I’m surprised there are so many insights about him as he went completely under the radar for me. I posted it after reading a post by a WBA fan stating he thought he was Bilic’s best signing for their club.

[surge]

This in my opinion is where your intransigence is shining through. What have you seen that says he’s anything more than an average Championship defender, which is what he’ll be again next season.

I also think that Morrison who had exactly the same credentials you are espousing for Ajayi is also just an average Championship defender... as were Bamba, Manga, Bennett and Peltier (who also got signed by WBA).

Sean Morrison appeared in the 2019-2020 Whoscored team of the year:

Partnering Hutchinson at the back is Cardiff's Sean Morrison. Only Preston's Patrick Bauer (249) won more aerial duels than Morrison (243) in the Championship this season. The 29-year-old scored four and assisted two for the Bluebirds, while no player won more WhoScored.com man of the match awards than Morrison (10) to contribute towards his inclusion in this team with a rating of 7.26.

He did not appear in the PFA team of the year for the same season. Ajayi didn't make that PFA team either but he does appear in the Sky Championship pundits team of the year:

And White's partner at the back is West Brom's Ajayi, signed from Rotherham in the summer and has quickly established himself as one of the top defenders in the Championship. Four of our six pundits selected him in their side

Think you might have higher expectations for really good Championship defenders than is fair considering two of those who described as average were in some (not all) of the best 11 for last season.

[StraightOuttaCanton]

Reply to Surge:

You’d probably be right about my expectations but I’m not sure that some select XI’s from whoscored.com and a bunch of Championship ‘pundits’ are significant enough for me to change my perspective

[StraightOuttaCanton]

So, you're saying that Ajayi plus all of the defenders we had at the club when we got promoted were average at Championship level? I accept that there is an argument to say that they aren't Premier League standard, but you genuinely believe that none of those you list are good Championship defenders (and weren't when we got promoted?)? All I can say is that you have very demanding standards.

Maybe it’s our respective definitions of Championship defenders... I suppose my perspective is that none of them are anything more than average. I’d suggest that you could probably take a centre half from any team in the Championship and drop them into any of the other 23 teams and they’d probably do just fine. Let’s say there are 92 regular starting centre halves ... it’s very rare you get a stand out player in that position in this league... if they existed there’d be a queue of interested top half premier league teams for them...

I don’t recall anyone ever being interested in any of our defenders being in those conversations. In fact we’ve only really had a few that have ever been able to bridge the gap between average (because that’s what I think a Championship level player generally is) and having a Premier League career... Outside of Gabbidon, Collins and maybe Johnson (who went downhill quickly) I’m struggling with any more who made their name with us in that position

[the other bob wilson]

Maybe it’s our respective definitions of Championship defenders... I suppose my perspective is that none of them are anything more than average. I’d suggest that you could probably take a centre half from any team in the Championship and drop them into any of the other 23 teams and they’d probably do just fine. Let’s say there are 92 regular starting centre halves ... it’s very rare you get a stand out player in that position in this league... if they existed there’d be a queue of interested top half premier league teams for them...

I don’t recall anyone ever being interested in any of our defenders being in those conversations. In fact we’ve only really had a few that have ever been able to bridge the gap between average (because that’s what I think a Championship level player generally is) and having a Premier League career... Outside of Gabbidon, Collins and maybe Johnson (who went downhill quickly) I’m struggling with any more who made their name with us in that position

I think you’ve done a good job of showing that certain players aren’t Premier League standard there, but I struggle to se how you can lump almost every centre back in the Championship together as being much of a muchness. A week on Friday, Sean Morrison will be thirty and so that might well be enough to put some clubs off him, but if we had been looking to sell him at any time in the four or five years since we signed him, I think there may have been one or two PremierLeague teams interested in him, but I’m pretty sure there would have been a fair few from the Championship because I think he’s seen as a good defender in this division within the game.

[StraightOuttaCanton]

I think you’ve done a good job of showing that certain players aren’t Premier League standard there, but I struggle to se how you can lump almost every centre back in the Championship together as being much of a muchness. A week on Friday, Sean Morrison will be thirty and so that might well be enough to put some clubs off him, but if we had been looking to sell him at any time in the four or five years since we signed him, I think there may have been one or two PremierLeague teams interested in him, but I’m pretty sure there would have been a fair few from the Championship because I think he’s seen as a good defender in this division within the game.

I think your last sentence is where we differ. Good defenders at this level are just that... and I do think they are much of a muchness, which is where my ‘average’ language comes from. Very rarely do they turn into anything more. They may get you into the top half of the Championship but that’s about it for most of them.

[surge]

I think your last sentence is where we differ. Good defenders at this level are just that... and I do think they are much of a muchness, which is where my ‘average’ language comes from. Very rarely do they turn into anything more. They may get you into the top half of the Championship but that’s about it for most of them.

Are good defenders at this level more about consistency of performance rather than talent levels? Morrison is one of the most consistently above average defenders at this level but you could probably find an equally talented defender who shows their skills once every four games. That's why McNaughton could do it at CB for 2 games in a row but was found out if asked to do more than that.

Premier league is looking for talent and consistency and most defenders at this level aren't able to get there while some others can but still need coaching up.

Unlikely that Morrison was ever going to attract premier league interest but he's definitely one of the better ones at this level.

[The Bob Banker Spanker]

This will be a quiet thread tonight

[Rjk]

This will be a quiet thread tonight

wait, there's another thread that I'll boost

[the other bob wilson]

This will be a quiet thread tonight

Yep, it probably will be.

[Baloo]

This will be a quiet thread tonight

Apparently not. Leeds have been great again.

Peach of an own goal.

[StraightOuttaCanton]

The fact that Lee Peltier started just reinforces the average nature of Championship defenders... the fact that they conceded 5 puts a cherry on the top

[Pedro de la Rosa]

The fact that Lee Peltier started just reinforces the average nature of Championship defenders... the fact that they conceded 5 puts a cherry on the top

How does the fact Peltier started a PL game reinforce anything?

[StraightOuttaCanton]

How does the fact Peltier started a PL game reinforce anything?

You don’t see the link? Suppose I’m not surprised

[Pedro de la Rosa]

You don’t see the link? Suppose I’m not surprised

I honestly haven't got a clue what you're on about. Peltier was a very good defender for us and the fact you call Manga, Bamba and Morrison average is mental. Look at the difference between Benkovic and Morrison tonight. Chalk and cheese.

[StraightOuttaCanton]

I honestly haven't got a clue what you're on about. Peltier was a very good defender for us and the fact you call Manga, Bamba and Morrison average is mental. Look at the difference between Benkovic and Morrison tonight. Chalk and cheese.

I didn’t just call those defenders average, I said most if not nearly all defenders at this level are just average. Peltier was below average.

You’re the guy I think who believes Bennett is a good defender 🤪.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

I didn’t just call those defenders average, I said most if not nearly all defenders at this level are just average. Peltier was below average.

You’re the guy I think who believes Bennett is a good defender 🤪.

Well, you did call them average.

I also think that Morrison who had exactly the same credentials you are espousing for Ajayi is also just an average Championship defender... as were Bamba, Manga, Bennett and Peltier (who also got signed by WBA).

Peltier was a very good defender. Who skinned him? He was extremely limited but he could defend. If the ball went past him, the man didn't . Bennett is the other way but he's a decent left back. Cunningham again, is a decent left back. Maybe Harris is right about who's the better defender after Benkovic's "performance" tonight.

Just like at all levels, some players are better than others. Manga, Bamba and Morrison were miles ahead of most centre backs at this level.

[StraightOuttaCanton]

Well, you did call them average.



Peltier was a very good defender. Who skinned him? He was extremely limited but he could defend. If the ball went past him, the man didn't . Bennett is the other way but he's a decent left back. Cunningham again, is a decent left back. Maybe Harris is right about who's the better defender after Benkovic's "performance" tonight.

Just like at all levels, some players are better than others. Manga, Bamba and Morrison were miles ahead of most centre backs at this level.

I called them average because that’s exactly what they are, and today the defenders in our squad aren’t even average.... they consistently get exposed by teams that nobody could call special.

You’re living in a parallel universe sunshine

[Pedro de la Rosa]

I called them average because that’s exactly what they are, and today the defenders in our squad aren’t even average.... they consistently get exposed by teams that nobody could call special.

You’re living in a parallel universe sunshine

Talking out your arse. One time you say you can swap Champ defenders and you wouldn’t notice, then you said you didn’t say you said they were average, then you said they are.

Manga, Bamba and Morrison were clearly top Championship centre backs. They were the best trio in the league in 17/18. If you can’t see that, maybe you should give up.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Agree with this 100%

Yes you can look at our squad at the time and think that Ajayi wouldn't be first choice ahead of Morrison and Bamba, but in that promotion season Greg Halford even played a few games at centre back so there would have been opportunities if only the club had the will to take them to develop youth.

There will ALWAYS be a more proven option but unless you push the boat out occasionally and play then them the younger players are never going to become good enough.

Ajayi got games at a decent level (thanks to Rotherham) and went on to be a good Championship level defender at least, and is just entering his peak years.
How many more of our youth players could have developed to a far higher level if they had been at a club that was remotely interested in developing youth players? we will never know.

One of the most baffling decisions with Ajayi came under Slade when we had nothing to play for and a run of 5 or 6 games at the end of the season, and we decided to play Danny Gabbidon instead, who was at the end of his contract .

To take another club as an example - Reading.
Players from their academy are currently playing for half of the teams in the Championship.
Are players from the Reading area much more naturally gifted than those from South Wales? - no of course not.
Were all of those players the strongest options at their clubs in their respective positions when they started to get game time? - no of course not.
They could have made excuses for not playing any of them, in exactly the same way as we see on this thread about Ajayi, but they, and other clubs at this level didn't.

Gabbidon played 1 game in his second spell.

He was never going to get significant game time in our promotion season and he went out of loan and did well. He was never going to sign a contract renewal here, he needed to get regular games.

The club can be rightly criticised for their youth strategy but Ajayi was 20(?) when he got here and had 3 centre backs that won player of the season awards plus Bamba in front of him.

Re South Wales, the Jacks have 2 local lads regularly in their side, we have 0. It’s extremely worrying the lack of local lads in football full stop.

[Baloo]

Ajayi wasn't good enough to make Rotherham's League One team after one and a half seasons of regular football at the age of 24 and yet apparently we should have moved heaven and earth to have kept him here for our promotion push and subsequent Premier League campaign even though there were three better centre halves ahead of him. I'm definitely missing something here.

Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to assume that, like Morrison and many other higher profile players, he was dropped after a poor patch of form? He started every league game for Rotherham at Championship level just a few months later so was clearly good enough for them around that time.

I don’t want to get carried away with him tbh but he’s clearly done well overall for both Rotherham and WBA until now.

[Rjk]

Wouldn’t it be more reasonable to assume that, like Morrison and many other higher profile players, he was dropped after a poor patch of form? He started every league game for Rotherham at Championship level just a few months later so was clearly good enough for them around that time.

I don’t want to get carried away with him tbh but he’s clearly done well overall for both Rotherham and WBA until now.

I seem to remember he was pretty inconsistent for Rotherham when he first went there, but that isn't a great surprise given how starved of first team experience he had been. But when he was on his game there was enough about him to convince them he was worth persisting with.

[StraightOuttaCanton]

Where has anyone defended the club's approach to young players? Why are we even talking about the Academy when Ajayi was 21 when he joined us and 23 when he left? When did Halford play centre half for us in the promotion season, outside of two League Cup games? How were we meant to stop Ajayi leaving for Rotherham so he'd even have been with us that season?

I've explained the Ajayi situation here twice. We set up three loan deals for him (which was three more than Arsenal did) the first two were cut short and the third was so successful he wanted to sign for them because they could offer him regular first team football whereas here he'd have had to get past two of Bamba, Morrison and Manga. He was 23, wanted to play first team football and his contract was nearly up, it was a no-brainer for him.

Ajayi wasn't good enough to make Rotherham's League One team after one and a half seasons of regular football at the age of 24 and yet apparently we should have moved heaven and earth to have kept him here for our promotion push and subsequent Premier League campaign even though there were three better centre halves ahead of him. I'm definitely missing something here.

I’m frankly staggered that you are getting any push back at all... if he’d been 16 and someone had taken him then maybe the naysayers would have a possibly credible position

[Pedro de la Rosa]