Arsenal in the championship next season ?

[splott parker]

How about Spain, Germany, Italy and France?

You say we have a strong FA Cup. But what does that actually mean? The fact of the matter is that it's been 40 years since a club from outside the top flight won the FA Cup, and it's something that has only happened three times in the last 90 years.

I note you didn't attempt to answer any of the questions I asked, so I'll ask them again:

1) Has there ever been enough money in the English game to comfortably support 92 fully professional clubs?

2) Why does the English set-up have so many fully professional clubs by comparison to the other major European leagues?

3) What benefits does the game in England derive by having four fully professional divisions?

1). No, the way the non ‘through the turnstile’ money is distributed. Yes, if that money filtered down.

2). Tradition, which I think is a wonderful thing to cling on to. If it had been streamlined over the years, perhaps there’d have been no glory years for the likes of Norwich, Ipswich, Southampton, Bournemouth, Brighton, Swansea, Oxford, Wimbledon, Crystal Palace, Luton, Wolves, us etc. If non league started after, say, 40 clubs, relegation from the League may have been the end for many clubs who’ve battled back from Third and Fourth Division visits. Being in a 92 club system I s’pose gives hope to perennial lower division clubs when they see clubs such as I’ve mentioned above rising up the leagues, a sort of ‘It could be us one day’. I do think there’s a civic pride as well more so for these type of clubs, if they’re relegated out of the League, there’s very often interviews with townsfolk saying how sad it is for the area (perhaps they should go and support them then, but that’s another matter).

3). Pride, perhaps, I know when we were lower division cannon fodder, wearing a City pin badge, or the like, even in our own city was a sort of (in my eyes, anyway) ‘I’m a proper football fan’ type of thing among the Man Utd, Liverpool shirt wearers. I even knew that I was more knowledgeable about football as a whole than them, I knew the names of Man Utd and Liverpool players from years and years ago that they had no clue about. What would happen to the stalwart supporters of the lower league clubs should they go forever? These people are the backbone of the game here, losing them would be so detrimental to the English system, the positives and benefits of having these people supporting the game, taking a huge interest in the game, being there when results go sour, looking at the big picture rather than the big clubs far outweigh the notion of streamlining the system.

[The Lone Gunman]

Ever since I watched my first professional football match in 1974, clubs throughout the various divisions have been struggling for money and Cardiff City is a prime example. The club has almost constantly spent money it doesn't have and has almost always had financial problems of one sort or another. It is currently losing huge sums every month and is heavily reliant upon the money and goodwill of a Malaysian businessman because it can't support itself. The reason for that situation is blatantly obvious - like almost all of the professional clubs in the English pyramid system, Cardiff City continues to pay its players ludicrous levels of wages in relation to their actual abilities.

In my opinion, the model for professional football in this country is utterly ridiculous. Unlike the other major European leagues, we have way too many fully professional clubs and almost all of them pay their players way too much money, which is why there are clubs are constantly in financial trouble. They simply don't live within their means.

It's easy to blame the Premier League for this situation, but doing so fails to acknowledge the root cause of the problem. After all, it doesn't matter how much money most these clubs are given in hand-outs - we know they'll go out and spend more regardless.

Are there any other leagues in Europe where the top clubs bankroll unrealistic spending sprees and persistent financial mismanagement at a large number of smaller clubs? Does this sort of thing happen in any other sport? Indeed, does anything similar happen in any other type of business? I can't think of any examples.

The Premier League isn't destroying clubs in the lower leagues. They are destroying themselves by persistent and wilful financial mismanagement and by continually failing to operate within realistic budgets.

[The Lone Gunman]

These people are the backbone of the game here, losing them would be so detrimental to the English system, the positives and benefits of having these people supporting the game, taking a huge interest in the game, being there when results go sour, looking at the big picture rather than the big clubs far outweigh the notion of streamlining the system.

People tend to look at this situation in an 'all or nothing' kind of way, but I don't think that's reasonable. After all, nobody is saying the pyramid system or any clubs in the lower leagues shouldn't exist. The question is how they should be managed in financial terms for their own benefit.

All of the major European leagues have pyramid systems and some tiny clubs have made it to their top flights at various times throughout history. However, what they don't do in those countries is carry so many fully professional clubs and pay their players at the lower levels such ridiculous sums of money.

[The Lone Gunman]

Tradition, which I think is a wonderful thing to cling on to.

I meant to say Steve, I think you've nailed it. People believe in the current system simply because it's traditional. It's not successful and it's not realistic in financial terms, but it's traditional, so people are opposed to changing it.

[splott parker]

People tend to look at this situation in an 'all or nothing' kind of way, but I don't think that's reasonable. After all, nobody is saying the pyramid system or any clubs in the lower leagues shouldn't exist. The question is how they should be managed in financial terms for their own benefit.

All of the major European leagues have pyramid systems and some tiny clubs have made it to their top flights at various times throughout history. However, what they don't do in those countries is carry so many fully professional clubs and pay their players at the lower levels such ridiculous sums of money.

I don’t think many are on ridiculous sums of money Dave. A hell of a lot would make more of a living playing part time whilst holding down another job, many do this in the non league system. I’d say a good few choose to play full time on average wages because being a full time pro in your twenties, whilst not financially viable, is a sort of status symbol. As you allude to though it is a financial mystery how some of them soldier on but a lot of them have been doing it for over a hundred years, beats me but they’ve done it and survived and for the collective thousands of fans who support these clubs long may it continue.

[splott parker]

I meant to say Steve, I think you've nailed it. People believe in the current system simply because it's traditional. It's not successful and it's not realistic in financial terms, but it's traditional, so people are opposed to changing it.

So, personally are you in favour of maintaining the tradition?

[The Lone Gunman]

I don’t think many are on ridiculous sums of money Dave.

An EFL report earlier this year revealed that the highest earning players in League One were being paid approximately £15,600 a week, while the figure for League Two was £4,500 a week. Meanwhile, the average weekly wage for the higher-earning players in League One was £4,750 and in League Two it was £2,200. That was basic pay without any bonuses or incentives.

[The Lone Gunman]

So, personally are you in favour of maintaining the tradition?

No, not at all. I'm in favour of football clubs throughout the pyramid system living within their means - something that hasn't been happening throughout my lifetime.

[splott parker]

An EFL report earlier this year revealed that the highest earning players in League One were being paid approximately £15,600 a week, while the figure for League Two was £4,500 a week. Meanwhile, the average weekly wage for the higher-earning players in League One was £4,750 and in League Two it was £2,200. That was basic pay without any bonuses or incentives.

Jesus, that’s shocked me, I wonder if some of the lower paid players read the EFL report and rocked the boat at their clubs? In the big picture the wages aren’t huge given the length of a player’s career, given that in their thirties they’re most probably seeking other employment on vastly reduced figures. Still it’s a huge monthly outlay for individual clubs, as I stated in a previous post, it beats me how they do it, fair play to them for keeping going, seems an impossible financial task to me but keep going they do and have done for years and years. They’re obviously doing something right.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The questions are not aimed at me, but i’m gonna have ago anyway😀
1 i would say at one stage their would have been enough money in the the game to fully support 92 clubs. I’m talking days gone by, when their was very little football on TV, very few other social pastimes, foreign players were very rare, and players wages were minuscule ( in comparison to today).

2. I’d guess that the answer to this, is connected to Q1. In days gone by supply and demand crowd wise, and competitive natures, would have seen many clubs taking the step up to professional status.

3. Imo, there is no benefit now, in having 4 professional divisions. In todays footballing world, i’m amazed that they all survive.
The big 6 in the premier league owe all the smaller clubs diddly squat. In all walks of life, it’s survival of the fittest, whether we like it or not.
The big problem with this though, and this applies to Scotland as well, each of these smaller clubs have a nucleus of die hard fans who go home and away, and gave done all their lives. It’s gonna be heartbreaking for them, when the pyramid eventually collapses, and dire financial situations force many of these smaller clubs to fold.
Future generations would go on to support the nearest professional team to them, but as in all walks of life, whether it be an old factory, an old mining pit or and old football ground, it is always so sad at the time, to see them disappear into history.

oh they funking do owe the smaller clubs because any decent talent is soon snapped up by the big boys

I think its disgraceful that a player of Aaron ramseys class was nicked for what was peanuts to a club like arsenal who have had years of TV money in the coffers

As for the rest of your analysis its libertarian and goes against everything that society should stand for

If you think if we agree to your principles of survival of the fittest then cardiff city will be one of the clubs that emerge from the ashes then you are in for a shock

If tan decides enough is enough , we are the next bury

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Ever since I watched my first professional football match in 1974, clubs throughout the various divisions have been struggling for money and Cardiff City is a prime example. The club has almost constantly spent money it doesn't have and has almost always had financial problems of one sort or another. It is currently losing huge sums every month and is heavily reliant upon the money and goodwill of a Malaysian businessman because it can't support itself. The reason for that situation is blatantly obvious - like almost all of the professional clubs in the English pyramid system, Cardiff City continues to pay its players ludicrous levels of wages in relation to their actual abilities.

In my opinion, the model for professional football in this country is utterly ridiculous. Unlike the other major European leagues, we have way too many fully professional clubs and almost all of them pay their players way too much money, which is why there are clubs are constantly in financial trouble. They simply don't live within their means.

It's easy to blame the Premier League for this situation, but doing so fails to acknowledge the root cause of the problem. After all, it doesn't matter how much money most these clubs are given in hand-outs - we know they'll go out and spend more regardless.

Are there any other leagues in Europe where the top clubs bankroll unrealistic spending sprees and persistent financial mismanagement at a large number of smaller clubs? Does this sort of thing happen in any other sport? Indeed, does anything similar happen in any other type of business? I can't think of any examples.

The Premier League isn't destroying clubs in the lower leagues. They are destroying themselves by persistent and wilful financial mismanagement and by continually failing to operate within realistic budgets.

what a load of crap

Clubs are paying wages that they can't afford to get into the Premier league as that's where all the money is

If more money was filtered down into the lower leagues from the greedy tossers then there wouldn't be such a scramble to get there in the first place

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

No, not at all. I'm in favour of football clubs throughout the pyramid system living within their means - something that hasn't been happening throughout my lifetime.

all football clubs living within their means ?

Well thats half the Premier league and most of the championship funked then 🙄

[William Treseder]

Ever since I watched my first professional football match in 1974, clubs throughout the various divisions have been struggling for money and Cardiff City is a prime example. The club has almost constantly spent money it doesn't have and has almost always had financial problems of one sort or another. It is currently losing huge sums every month and is heavily reliant upon the money and goodwill of a Malaysian businessman because it can't support itself. The reason for that situation is blatantly obvious - like almost all of the professional clubs in the English pyramid system, Cardiff City continues to pay its players ludicrous levels of wages in relation to their actual abilities.

In my opinion, the model for professional football in this country is utterly ridiculous. Unlike the other major European leagues, we have way too many fully professional clubs and almost all of them pay their players way too much money, which is why there are clubs are constantly in financial trouble. They simply don't live within their means.

It's easy to blame the Premier League for this situation, but doing so fails to acknowledge the root cause of the problem. After all, it doesn't matter how much money most these clubs are given in hand-outs - we know they'll go out and spend more regardless.

Are there any other leagues in Europe where the top clubs bankroll unrealistic spending sprees and persistent financial mismanagement at a large number of smaller clubs? Does this sort of thing happen in any other sport? Indeed, does anything similar happen in any other type of business? I can't think of any examples.

The Premier League isn't destroying clubs in the lower leagues. They are destroying themselves by persistent and wilful financial mismanagement and by continually failing to operate within realistic budgets.

I saw my 1st City game about 2 yrs before you. I think you’ll agree, that in those days, if someone had told you Cardiff City were going to play at Wembley in 4 competitive games, including an FA cup final and league cup final in your lifetime, you , me and all other City fans at the time wouldn’t have believed it.
Now, not only have we done that, we’ve got a load of City fans who’d now rather we put out an under strength team out in cup competitions, just so we can “chase the dream” of getting back to the Premier league.
Their attitude is fu*k the cups, we’ve been there, seen that, done it.
The majority of fans of all smaller clubs are not the slightest bit interested in their club living with in their means. Not until it’s too late anyway.