FT: CARDIFF CITY 2 - 3 BRENTFORD. Match thread

[Pedro de la Rosa]

We aren't good enough for the top 6. I don't think any of our fit players get in any of the top teams. Moore might and I think we'll struggle to keep him in the summer.

[blue lewj]

We aren't good enough for the top 6. I don't think any of our fit players get in any of the top teams. Moore might and I think we'll struggle to keep him in the summer.

I'd agree with that although that was the goal he was given and speaks about fairly regularly.

A worry for me is he is now fawning over other teams. No, I dont expect him to say we will beat them 6-0 but he is talking of these teams like Warnock spoke about the top 4 in the Premier League and that stuck in the throat.

The teams we are praising are the teams we will hope to be beating over three games in the play offs should we get there.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

I'd agree with that although that was the goal he was given and speaks about fairly regularly.

A worry for me is he is now fawning over other teams. No, I dont expect him to say we will beat them 6-0 but he is talking of these teams like Warnock spoke about the top 4 in the Premier League and that stuck in the throat.

The teams we are praising are the teams we will hope to be beating over three games in the play offs should we get there.

Yes that's his aim but we aren't going to get it, you know it, I know it, Harris knows, Tan and the board know it. We aren't very good. It's a bit of freak year as the 3 relegated sides have kept most of their players and are extremely talented. Brentford usually would be the 2nd or 3rd best team in the league, this year they're the 5th or 6th.

Harris also can't say, well we are a bit crap so let's write this off as a bad job, despite the fact that we all know that's what we need to do and build for the future.

[surge]

Not an unexpected result.

We invariably get turned over by the better teams.

I'll leave it at that as arguing the toss on here doesn't change anything. I still think Harris falls short on his ultimate goal of promotion regardless of how long he is here, is tactically naive and has no plan B and ultimately is like a Warnock style without knocking over a few of the big boys regularly enough and being weaker defensively.

Cue some of the usual suspects commencing the name calling and telling those that dare question Harris that he is building something and has a grand plan.

For the first time I started to wonder whether a more tactically astute manager would be able to get a bit more out of this team. We're still a very limited squad, which I definitely think is being improved by the medium-longer term plan Harris and the board has, but we're now three positions and four points away from where I think we should be this year.

I don't think we'll have a fully Neil Harris Cardiff City team until 2022-2023 due to the maddening contracts Warnock handed out but at the end of the season we should be asking if we want to see that come to fruition with the full season as evidence.

Brentford for me are the 4th or 5th best team in the league. I didn't expect to win today but, as stated in previous post, still feel today was massively frustrating.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I think this, Norwich and the Swansea game have been a bit of a reality check as to the talent levels within the side. We were second best in all of those games in terms of football played, in terms of passing and movement and arguably in a defensive way as well. Our creativity from open play was a 70 yard spectacular. Our set pieces were defended with a degree of ease by all three. No problems with our workrate and endeavour today and for much of the Norwich game, but it's hard to suggest we're close to matching the best in the division.

Harris can only work with what he has. We're missing Kieffer Moore, that's an understatement! Because we lack quality in midfield and up front it's hard to get Glatzel and Wilson involved.

We're not going to finish top 6. We're not going down. It would be nice to see what the aims of the club are going forward as our current personnel and tactics don't seem to me to be a base from which to improve.

[blue lewj]

For the first time I started to wonder whether a more tactically astute manager would be able to get a bit more out of this team. We're still a very limited squad, which I definitely think is being improved by the medium-longer term plan Harris and the board has, but we're now three positions and four points away from where I think we should be this year.

I don't think we'll have a fully Neil Harris Cardiff City team until 2022-2023 due to the maddening contracts Warnock handed out but at the end of the season we should be asking if we want to see that come to fruition with the full season as evidence.

Brentford for me are the 4th or 5th best team in the league. I didn't expect to win today but, as stated in previous post, still feel today was massively frustrating.

There are those that think a full Harris team will be successful or not though.

I am not his biggest fan and think we will either get much of the same with different personnel. Others think he is building something and they're fully entitled to that opinion but I've not seen much to suggest that.

Warnock did go a long way to leaving the next man with a job on but not many managers walk into an easy gig especially at this level.

If Harris cannot deviate from plan A, a style not a world away from Warnock's where we fleetingly play some football and then revert to type while having a soft underbelly, then the best we can hope for is a dull but successful style. I believe this is what Harris will strive for in trying to get better quality into his style of play but I don't think that Harris can do this to a level that takes is up. I also don't think he will get the time to do it. Lack of understanding is the main issue from a board who believed they were bringing in a man to take us in a new direction and then thinking he was a manager who could take us up given the squad at his disposal. He was neither for me.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

There are those that think a full Harris team will be successful or not though.

I am not his biggest fan and think we will either get much of the same with different personnel. Others think he is building something and they're fully entitled to that opinion but I've not seen much to suggest that.

Warnock did go a long way to leaving the next man with a job on but not many managers walk into an easy gig especially at this level.

If Harris cannot deviate from plan A, a style not a world away from Warnock's where we fleetingly play some football and then revert to type while having a soft underbelly, then the best we can hope for is a dull but successful style. I believe this is what Harris will strive for in trying to get better quality into his style of play but I don't think that Harris can do this to a level that takes is up. I also don't think he will get the time to do it. Lack of understanding is the main issue from a board who believed they were bringing in a man to take us in a new direction and then thinking he was a manager who could take us up given the squad at his disposal. He was neither for me.

Harris is here because he's cheap. A new man wouldn't do better necessarily and I worry who they bring in to replace him. Harris has actually done quite well in the transfer market and in some areas. He's far from perfect but last season wasn't an accident. We're a million miles off the top 5/6 sides though.

[blue lewj]

Harris is here because he's cheap. A new man wouldn't do better necessarily and I worry who they bring in to replace him. Harris has actually done quite well in the transfer market and in some areas. He's far from perfect but last season wasn't an accident. We're a million miles off the top 5/6 sides though.

Yeah. Sacking Harris for not getting results and not playing with a different style of football and then asking the same people who appointed Harris to pick a replacement could end up with any result really.

Tan is a decent owner in that he has kept us ticking along and dipped into his own pockets at times but I'm not one that feels his choices at board level are beyond question. I think he has a lot of yes men and many who are woefully void of footballing knowledge. People think these people are beyond question because they are top businessmen. If football has shown people that a successful businessman doesn't necessarily mean a successful owner then nothing will.

Tan needs an experienced football Chairman with knowledge and preferably experience. They also need a director of football. That is if they truly want the change of direction they say they want. I think Tan likes having the ultimate say and footballing knowledge in the Chairman position and a Director of Football would see too much questioning of Tan's methods. In short I am grateful to Tan for his financial clout and the two stints in the top league but he or those that he appointed have got a fair bit wrong and I think he could have had at least a decent spell in the Premier League if we had learnt from mistakes.

The club are concerned about wasting money but picking managers seemingly out of a hat, giving them a little money and then canning them when they don't get promoted is wasting more money than building something with a little continuity surely?

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Harris is doing an awful lot better with his squad than the previous manager did. We have been absolutely shafted by Warnock. Tan won't give up control of his toy, so there is no way on earth the transfer committee will end.

[Bobby Dandruff]

Harris is doing an awful lot better with his squad than the previous manager did. We have been absolutely shafted by Warnock. Tan won't give up control of his toy, so there is no way on earth the transfer committee will end.

So you think that we should continue with Harris then?

[blue lewj]

Harris is doing an awful lot better with his squad than the previous manager did. We have been absolutely shafted by Warnock. Tan won't give up control of his toy, so there is no way on earth the transfer committee will end.

And that is my worry. Tan seems to like the last word on everything and anybody that doesn't fall in line with that is viewed as an enemy of the cause or disregarded. Until that changes then we have to expect decisions that make little football sense from time to time.

How much better is Harris doing than Warnock when he left? Genuine question. I am not saying Warnock was doing well in his final season but it was made all the more evident by his relative succes in the seasons prior to that.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

So you think that we should continue with Harris then?

I don't think the board will get anyone better. He isn't the main issue, either. We don't have enough footballers and I think he's bought pretty well. We won't have any money in January so he can't waste any, so I'd give him another window. Cooper is clearly doing a terrific job at the Jacks but the rest of the sides in and around the top 6 have massive budgets and have spent a fortune, and we are miles off it.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

And that is my worry. Tan seems to like the last word on everything and anybody that doesn't fall in line with that is viewed as an enemy of the cause or disregarded. Until that changes then we have to expect decisions that make little football sense from time to time.

How much better is Harris doing than Warnock when he left? Genuine question. I am not saying Warnock was doing well in his final season but it was made all the more evident by his relative succes in the seasons prior to that.

We were bloody awful under Warnock in 19/20. We are average now with some major weaknesses.

[surge]

And that is my worry. Tan seems to like the last word on everything and anybody that doesn't fall in line with that is viewed as an enemy of the cause or disregarded. Until that changes then we have to expect decisions that make little football sense from time to time.

How much better is Harris doing than Warnock when he left? Genuine question. I am not saying Warnock was doing well in his final season but it was made all the more evident by his relative succes in the seasons prior to that.

We're currently midtable in what appears to be a harder season while fielding a younger and cheaper squad. Warnock spent much, much more and was pushing us towards relegation battle before he left.

We have progressed under Harris but some are never getting over fact they didn't want him at the start. Is he the man for 2022-2023 onwards? If he isn't when do you make the change? Those are the two questions to answer, and for me, at the end of the season.

How much do we know about the running of the club? What are you basing your opening point on?

[Enoch Mort]

Yeah. Sacking Harris for not getting results and not playing with a different style of football and then asking the same people who appointed Harris to pick a replacement could end up with any result really.

Tan is a decent owner in that he has kept us ticking along and dipped into his own pockets at times but I'm not one that feels his choices at board level are beyond question. I think he has a lot of yes men and many who are woefully void of footballing knowledge. People think these people are beyond question because they are top businessmen. If football has shown people that a successful businessman doesn't necessarily mean a successful owner then nothing will.

Tan needs an experienced football Chairman with knowledge and preferably experience. They also need a director of football. That is if they truly want the change of direction they say they want. I think Tan likes having the ultimate say and footballing knowledge in the Chairman position and a Director of Football would see too much questioning of Tan's methods. In short I am grateful to Tan for his financial clout and the two stints in the top league but he or those that he appointed have got a fair bit wrong and I think he could have had at least a decent spell in the Premier League if we had learnt from mistakes.

The club are concerned about wasting money but picking managers seemingly out of a hat, giving them a little money and then canning them when they don't get promoted is wasting more money than building something with a little continuity surely?

I think you are correct in what you say about us needing someone with football experience running the club from this end. However, I don’t believe for one moment it’s going to happen. I think Tan wants trusted yes men running the club especially after the Colin experience where, by all accounts, he was able to run rings around KC and MD. We appear have an absolute dictator of an owner who knows nothing about football pulling the strings on 2 people who don’t appear to know much more. I don’t think VT can learn a lesson from a situation which most people can see is not satisfactory but is the way he wants it to be and therefore, from his point of view, perfectly OK.

[blue lewj]

We're currently midtable in what appears to be a harder season while fielding a younger and cheaper squad. Warnock spent much, much more and was pushing us towards relegation battle before he left.

We have progressed under Harris but some are never getting over fact they didn't want him at the start. Is he the man for 2022-2023 onwards? If he isn't when do you make the change? Those are the two questions to answer, and for me, at the end of the season.

How much do we know about the running of the club? What are you basing your opening point on?

A lot of things he has done through Dalman and Choo have told me that he likes the final say. Dalman and Choo dance to Tan's tune no doubt and that is a big reason why they are here I'm sure.

There is also the red kit debacle. Surely nobody outside of Vincent Tan's head could have told him this was a good idea and those that agreed were simply toeing the line surely. His stubbornness subsided when he saw the fallout in the cold light of day, monetarily and otherwise. I would go as far as asking you if you believe Tan is not having the final say on football matters then who? Dalman and Choo? Not for me. They are simply pawns of Tan.

[blue lewj]

I think you are correct in what you say about us needing someone with football experience running the club from this end. However, I don’t believe for one moment it’s going to happen. I think Tan wants trusted yes men running the club especially after the Colin experience where, by all accounts, he was able to run rings around KC and MD. We appear have an absolute dictator of an owner who knows nothing about football pulling the strings on 2 people who don’t appear to know much more. I don’t think VT can learn a lesson from a situation which most people can see is not satisfactory but is the way he wants it to be and therefore, from his point of view, perfectly OK.

That is my fear.

For everybody but the man who can change it there is a clear and evident problem but without that one man either noticing it, admitting it to himself or indeed wanting to change it then it remains the way we will go.

It has been the clear issue at Cardiff City for quite some time but the Harris reign has revealed the shortcomings more than many before them. Trollope aside. For what it is worth I think Slade did alright considering anything and everything was being sold beneath him.

[surge]

A lot of things he has done through Dalman and Choo have told me that he likes the final say. Dalman and Choo dance to Tan's tune no doubt and that is a big reason why they are here I'm sure.

There is also the red kit debacle. Surely nobody outside of Vincent Tan's head could have told him this was a good idea and those that agreed were simply toeing the line surely. His stubbornness subsided when he saw the fallout in the cold light of day, monetarily and otherwise. I would go as far as asking you if you believe Tan is not having the final say on football matters then who? Dalman and Choo? Not for me. They are simply pawns of Tan.

What do we know about Tan's involvement after Slade left? It feels like we haven't heard from him in ages.

[blue lewj]

What do we know about Tan's involvement after Slade left? It feels like we haven't heard from him in ages.

Not sure.
A lot seems to happen over the telephone as Harris has alluded to on a few occasions.
Has Harris even met VT in person? Has he been seen at a game during Harris' time at the club?

Is having the main decision maker in a different country and time zone during the season and at important times like transfer windows where things change in the time it takes for another transfer to go through. It wouldn't appear to be ideal.

[City123]

And that is my worry. Tan seems to like the last word on everything and anybody that doesn't fall in line with that is viewed as an enemy of the cause or disregarded. Until that changes then we have to expect decisions that make little football sense from time to time.

How much better is Harris doing than Warnock when he left? Genuine question. I am not saying Warnock was doing well in his final season but it was made all the more evident by his relative succes in the seasons prior to that.

We were truly awful in 19/20 under Warnock

[blue lewj]

We were truly awful in 19/20 under Warnock

How many points did we have in comparison with Harris this season?

That is the only way to compare given the less than beautiful football on show.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

How many points did we have in comparison with Harris this season?

That is the only way to compare given the less than beautiful football on show.

Warnock's side won 21 points from 16 games before being sacked. Harris's side won 23 from the first 16 this season.

Warnock's side averaged 1.31 before getting the boot. This season we've won 1.38. It should be pointed out that Harris's side won 1.73 from the moment he was appointed until the playoff semi finals.

[blue lewj]

Warnock's side won 21 points from 16 games before being sacked. Harris's side won 23 from the first 16 this season.

Warnock's side averaged 1.31 before getting the boot. This season we've won 1.38. It should be pointed out that Harris's side won 1.73 from the moment he was appointed until the playoff semi finals.

That is kind of the point I was getting at.

Warnock's 19/20 spell was bad, as many have pointed out on here, but it isn't a world away from what Harris is serving up. I would go as far as saying Warnock would not be here now with the same record.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

That is kind of the point I was getting at.

Warnock's 19/20 spell was bad, as many have pointed out on here, but it isn't a world away from what Harris is serving up. I would go as far as saying Warnock would not be here now with the same record.

Agreed. I posted around the time of the 16th game this season that Harris would be lucky to survive based on his record this season in comparison with others who had been sacked around the same time in previous seasons. It wasn't a call for Harris's head, merely making a comparison. I can only presume there's a longer term plan that Harris is plotting, we're at least starting to look at our youngsters and developing something there. In terms of football, I don't see how we're advancing. Dalman's comments 2 months ago suggest top 6 is still the club's biggest priority.

[blue lewj]

Agreed. I posted around the time of the 16th game this season that Harris would be lucky to survive based on his record this season in comparison with others who had been sacked around the same time in previous seasons. It wasn't a call for Harris's head, merely making a comparison. I can only presume there's a longer term plan that Harris is plotting, we're at least starting to look at our youngsters and developing something there. In terms of football, I don't see how we're advancing. Dalman's comments 2 months ago suggest top 6 is still the club's biggest priority.

I would be over the moon with the youngsters breaking through but I fear the quality isn't quite there.

I don't think that them not breaking through is purely down to a blind focus on senior players and nothing else. I think it is a combination of few managers taking a gamble on the youngsters and then simply not being good enough to step up.

My respect for Dalman and any decisions he is involved in with regards to football changed when he told us Harris would take us in a different direction. He didn't have to say anything of the sort but it was so far off the mark it felt like a thinly veiled pi$$take at the time.