Reply With QuoteDave Jones.Originally Posted by Its been emotional
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Who was our last manager who after he had taken over improved a few of our players, got the best out of them and improved them beyond recognition?
Plus players they brought in and the signing didn't exactly excite you, but with good coaching and management proved you wrong?
Dave Jones.
I didnt rate Jones at all. But theres no doubt he got the best out of Bothroyd.
I'd argue that Warnock got better performances out of Sol Bamba than had been known for years. Hoilett suddenly became a very good winger. Mendez-Laing was a surprising success. He even turned a right back into a reasonable forward.
Jones had some successes.
As for improved beyond recognition, I can't think of any over the last 20 years. Lots of wayward players who had potential but didn't show it.
Jones got the best out of Koumas, Bothroyd, Chopra etc. Turned Ledley into a PL player. Parry and others massively improved under him.
Found Johnson, Purse, Loovens, McPhail, McCormack, Hudson, McNaughton, Whitts and the above 3.
You didn't rate him at all? That's a bit harsh. What City managers do you rate?
Absolutely. Jones had his faults, and they ended up costing us promotion time and again, but to not rate him at all is ridiculous. He brought some great football to the club. He also raised the profile of Cardiff City to a decent Championship side after 2 decades in the lower divisions.
Ok at all is harsh when you see some of the signings. Should have gone though well before his time. A better manager would have done better with the squads he had in my opinion. Plus some of the performances are among the most embarrassing from any City sides considering the players we had.
Warnock pre PL , Malky pre premier league , Len Ashurst , Frank Burrows.
The Eddie May promotion season was fantastic. Eddie had really good resources though for Div 4 - but he used them well. Pity we couldnt have built on that season.
Since Dave Jones left how many times has anyone come out of the ground at the end of a game and said "I really enjoyed that" for reasons other than the result? It didn't happen too often, but it was possible to say that after a match which we hadn't won during Jones' time in charge.
As for the original question, I'd say that most managers are capable of drawing improved performances out of players if the individual concerned feels he is trusted and is someone the manager thinks of as a first teamer - for example, I'd say that Leandro Bacuna has generally looked a better player under Neil Harris' management than he ever did under Neil Warnock's.
A different (I won't use better) manager wouldn't have got the best out of the players we had or got them to come. Jones was superb at polishing rough diamonds. Look at Bothroyd, he only did it under Jones. Chopra, too (but that was probably down to other factors). Jones did a lot of good down here in difficult circumstances a lot of the time.
Watching Lee Tomlin play under Neil Harris, which answers the original question, too.
Spot on
Tomlin definitely looked a better player under Harris
Arguably Vaulks & Bacuna have looked better under Harris
I give him credit for Bothroyd.
The cheque book for attracting the players.
Wasnt Bothroyd an afterthought after a much bigger deal for Marcus Bent fell through.
Im glad when he went and within 2 seasons we were rebuilt almost won a cup and promoted.
Still there is the myth of Dave Jones and the shoestring budget.
What a fall back it was. He signed the best striker I've seen for City and the best player of the modern era (perhaps longer) for 700k combined. We were Jay's hamstring away from getting promoted in 2010 but we didn't. Jones wasn't perfect but he definitely played his part.
I wonder where we'd be if we'd won that Play Off Final from time to time. Bellamy to keep us up, instead of get us up etc. If we signed a left back and an athletic centre half, we'd have had a hell of a side. As I put on another thread, I watched the Leicester semi on Sky, that team would absolute murder today's team.
Dave Jones did not run on a shoestring budget, the wage bill when he was in charge was regularly about the 6th highest in the league. However what he had to do was balance the books, Ridsdale had no money to invest so the plan was to sell a player for £5 million each year to accommodate the wage bill.
No manager after Dave Jones had to work within those restraints.
Looking back under Jones the football was better, he seemed to get more out of his signings, and more younger players came through than under any manger since.
All of the people you mentioned were decent until they weren't anymore. Except maybe Malky. What sets them aside from Dave Jones?
Wouldn't even by close. Who in the current side would make that team? Smithies maybe, possibly Morrison & Wilson
Three different ways to improve a player:
i) Give them game time and this extra experience and confidence does the heavy lifting of levelling them up.
ii) Create an environment where they feel comfortable and are more consistently able to show off their abilities.
iii) Work on their skills so they become better players
Think we've had a number of managers who have created the right environment for certain players but not sure which manager has obviously improved an individual's skill levels. Of course, several of our managers have been managers of the club rather than first team coaches and therefore their coaching staff would be more responsible for this.
Marshall or Smithies is a debate. Morrison over Hudson, tough again. I think you'd need Blake and Burke for pace, which means Wilson struggles to get in (he's not getting in over Whitts!).
A was once told a story by a player who signed for Jones when he was at Stockport.
As the player was introduced DJ welcomed him and said "You'll like it here, we take take all waifs and strays!". Which i think is pretty much a decent comment, he found decent average players and got them to play well. He brought in McNaughton, Whittingham , who as we know is now a legend at City, Chopra, Bothroyd, McPhail, Rae, Burke, McCormack, Johnson, Loovens, Capaldi, Kennedy etc. We paid a total of £1.075m for those three and sold them for £12.7m, and played decent football too. But yes we didn't get promoted.
Mackay did well with not much money to spend. We didn't lose out on fees for Medel or Caulker and made a big profit on Match but lost out on Kim.
Warnock had more money to spend than any other City manager, Reid £10m, Murphy £11m, Madine £6m, Smithies £3.5m, Cunningham £4m, Tomlin, Ward, Bogle, Paterson, Bacuna, Whyte , Pack, Glaztzel, Vaulks, Vassell. There's about £54million worth there. How many have been successful? Probably Bacuna, Paterson and maybe Smithies.
Whilst Mackay and Warnock got us promoted we ended up coming straight back down but Jones got us playing better football and made good profits on players.
If Jone shad got us up there would be a clear winner, but there again it's not a competition. Different times etc. I think Mackay did better than Warnock of the two that got us up.
I think Mackay, Jones and Harris all come ahead of Warnock for improving players in answer to the original question. As you can tell I lied Jones and Mackay, I'm Ok with Harris but not great fan of Warnock.
Mackay spent a huge amount in his 2nd season compared to the spending at that period, we also had the highest wage bill in the league in the promotion season.
Promotions.
Unfit not prepared players.
Not wasting Arron Ramsey.( if you disagree fair enough but nothing will ever change my mind that even at his young age he should have been in.)
Simply unable to play change tactics from a 2 man centre midfield and big man little man front 2. Admittedly Frankie and Len were at a time when there wasnt such a variance un tactics.
I dont remember such abysmal performances such as Jones side three up. I could list them but lets just start with 6 nil up at Preston throw in the middle Boro 3 down in under 20 minutes and finish with the last home game at NP. We wont even go into his clueless tactics v Blackpool.
We lost at home by 3 goals on 5 occasions under Jones. The earliest this happened was a 3-0 defeat to Sheffield United when we had 2 players sent off, both wrongly, by Paul Taylor at the end of March (2009). McCormack's red card was later rescinded. We lost 5-2 to Reading in April 2006. Our other 3-0s were Ipswich (last home game of 2008/09), Middlesbrough (last home game of 2010/11) and Reading again (playoffs 2011). The 3 goal defeats were always at the end of the season. We also conceded 3 at home to Leicester in the playoffs. In April and May during Jones's tenure, we conceded 35 goals in 23 games (1.52 a game). For the remainder of the time, we conceded 115 in 134 games (0.86 a game).
It always seemed that, as the end of the season approached, all the good work would be undone with a few dreadful results and performances. Playoffs lost, cup final lost, top 6 positions lost. It's a shame because if he'd have taken us up, which I believe is what the side in the last few seasons deserved, he'd have been a hero for ever.
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