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Thread: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

  1. #41

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Oddie View Post
    It's nothing to be light-hearted about unfortunately.

    Wales has benefitted enormously from EU funding, particularly over the last 20 years and the money will or cannot be replaced by the Welsh or British Governments.

    The problem isn't the spin doctors and downright liars who influenced the referendum, it's the gullible and ignorant who voted to leave.
    Wow, I didn’t realise I was gullible and ignorant...thanks for clearing that up for me!!!

  2. #42

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    Level headed and sensible, and more importantly fair to all is exactly what those countries wanted.
    So you could say, if we're going to continue this notion that we were the sensible ones keeping everyone on the level, we have now washed our hands with that kind of role. Mind you, on the other hand, we've been perceived as "Perfidious Albion" for a fair while too.

    But on the other hand, we have also long been seen as "Perfidious Albion".

  3. #43

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by Former Labour leader View Post
    In other news, water is wet.

    The UK will always be in some form of negotiation - or negotiations - with the EU for as long as either exist. Brexit doesn’t really end, until either or both does. This is just what neighbouring sovereign states that have interdependent economies outside of the EU do (Switzerland, Norway, etc). States within the EU do just the same. This is politics, no?

    Sovereignty was deemed the guiding principle for the current UK government and it negotiated with the EU with that red line primarily in mind (with some flexibility of course, arrangements for Northern Ireland for example). The economy was secondary in comparison - to an extent, this is Brexit in a nutshell.

    There will be economic damage to the UK in the short and medium term whether there was a pandemic or not, I think that is a fairly unanimous position amongst economists, but most who have advocated for the UK leaving the EU tended to downplay the significance of that damage and deemed it a price worth paying. Although there are economic cases that can be made for Brexit, from my experience I don’t think they made up the main thrust or groundswell of support for the campaign to leave that ultimately saw the UK vote to do so.

  4. #44

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by Pearcey3 View Post
    So unwieldy that their death rates from covid 19 are way way lower than ours.
    And your point is ?

  5. #45

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I actually respect the commission for their decision. Brexiteers simultaneously complained about Germany using the bloc to advantage themselves to the detriment of smaller countries and are now making light of the fact that Germany have been prevented from doing exactly that by the commission, which is it?

    As much as I praise the rollout efforts and foresight to invest public funds into the AZ vaccine, I can't help but wonder how bad this would be going if AZ/Oxford was at the same stage as the many other vaccines. We effectively have a preferential deal with one of the few vaccines to have reached the market, we hit the jackpot.
    The UK have always been at the forefront of scientific and vaccine development and the EU have always had the benefit of that knowledge and expertise in the past. They are now finding out what life is like after Brexit and their prevarication and dithering over this is typical of how they operate and when that fails they revert to the good old ‘bully boy’ tactics to try to get what they want and cover up their ineptitude. Well they can jog on.

  6. #46
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    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by B. Oddie View Post
    It's nothing to be light-hearted about unfortunately.

    Wales has benefitted enormously from EU funding, particularly over the last 20 years and the money will or cannot be replaced by the Welsh or British Governments.

    The problem isn't the spin doctors and downright liars who influenced the referendum, it's the gullible and ignorant who voted to leave.
    It is truly incredibly arrogant to label anyone who disagrees with your positon as gullible and ignorant. They all speak well of you.

  7. #47

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    It is truly incredibly arrogant to label anyone who disagrees with your positon as gullible and ignorant. They all speak well of you.
    I think its fair to say that a sizeable proportion of those people who voted to leave in areas that directly benefitted from EU grants and Investment were gullible and ignorant of the help their areas got from our membership of the EU , they were lied to by the vote leave campaign regarding the NHS etc and had their opinions swayed by false information .

    Thats different from saying bert from porth in the valleys is thick and ignorant for voting to leave . And I think that's what B Oddie is saying .

  8. #48
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    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I think its fair to say that a sizeable proportion of those people who voted to leave in areas that directly benefitted from EU grants and Investment were gullible and ignorant of the help their areas got from our membership of the EU , they were lied to by the vote leave campaign regarding the NHS etc and had their opinions swayed by false information .

    Thats different from saying bert from porth in the valleys is thick and ignorant for voting to leave . And I think that's what B Oddie is saying .
    I don't.

    And despite your constant complaints about people being lied to, this was made quite clear at every possible moment for over 3 years yet in Dec 2019 people still voted to leave by their actions at the General election.
    And now you'll repeat the not 50% ofthe vote thing again. How many labour governments would we have had if the 50% rule was appled all the time?

  9. #49
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    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    I don't.

    And despite your constant complaints about people being lied to, this was made quite clear at every possible moment for over 3 years yet in Dec 2019 people still voted to leave by their actions at the General election.
    And now you'll repeat the not 50% ofthe vote thing again. How many labour governments would we have had if the 50% rule was appled all the time?
    You keep on conflating two different things.

    Did people 'vote to leave' by splitting the Remain or 2nd Referendum vote between Labour, Lib Dems, Greens and the nationalists - who together got the majority of votes in the 2019 election?

    It is fair to say that Labour took a hit in 2019 because a significant part of their 'red wall' votes from 2017 and earlier went to the Tories mainly in response to 'Get Brexit done'.

    But majority of seats for a Brexit Tory party and a majority of votes for parties who held the opposite position can co-exist - and did!

  10. #50

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    It is truly incredibly arrogant to label anyone who disagrees with your positon as gullible and ignorant. They all speak well of you.
    I thought Bill was being extremely kind and diplomatic.

  11. #51
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    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    You keep on conflating two different things.

    Did people 'vote to leave' by splitting the Remain or 2nd Referendum vote between Labour, Lib Dems, Greens and the nationalists - who together got the majority of votes in the 2019 election?

    It is fair to say that Labour took a hit in 2019 because a significant part of their 'red wall' votes from 2017 and earlier went to the Tories mainly in response to 'Get Brexit done'.

    But majority of seats for a Brexit Tory party and a majority of votes for parties who held the opposite position can co-exist - and did!
    People keep quoting this, didn't get 50% of the vote mantra, but we all know that this is the way elections are and always have been decided in this country.
    Yet every time labour, and in this case remainers, lose they trot it out like it's a shock, outrageous and shouldn't be allowed. They just cannot accept that they lost and move on.
    And the longer they are in that mode the longer it will take to have an effectgive opposition in Parliament.
    It really is time to give it a rest.

  12. #52

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    People keep quoting this, didn't get 50% of the vote mantra, but we all know that this is the way elections are and always have been decided in this country.
    Yet every time labour, and in this case remainers, lose they trot it out like it's a shock, outrageous and shouldn't be allowed. They just cannot accept that they lost and move on.
    And the longer they are in that mode the longer it will take to have an effectgive opposition in Parliament.
    It really is time to give it a rest.
    He's not saying that ffs, try and understand it please.

  13. #53

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    People keep quoting this, didn't get 50% of the vote mantra, but we all know that this is the way elections are and always have been decided in this country.
    Yet every time labour, and in this case remainers, lose they trot it out like it's a shock, outrageous and shouldn't be allowed. They just cannot accept that they lost and move on.
    And the longer they are in that mode the longer it will take to have an effectgive opposition in Parliament.
    It really is time to give it a rest.
    That's why people bring it up; referendums and elections operate differently, so you can't conclude that people voted for Brexit in the General Election just because a pro-Brexit party ended up with more seats.

  14. #54
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    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    That's why people bring it up; referendums and elections operate differently, so you can't conclude that people voted for Brexit in the General Election just because a pro-Brexit party ended up with more seats.
    No you can't if you refuse to see it. But I think you'll find that largely, the seats in the labour 'red wall' that turned blue whould be found to be in areas where the referendum vote was predominantly to leave.
    But of course Brext had ablsolutely nothing to do with the election result.
    Hasn't it occurred to any remainers that if, as they assert, the referendum and the election result had nothing to do with each other then that means that Boris Joihnson gained his huge majority in spite of Btexit and not because of it. That thought is far more scary than brexit itself.

  15. #55
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    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    No you can't if you refuse to see it. But I think you'll find that largely, the seats in the labour 'red wall' that turned blue whould be found to be in areas where the referendum vote was predominantly to leave.
    But of course Brext had ablsolutely nothing to do with the election result.
    Hasn't it occurred to any remainers that if, as they assert, the referendum and the election result had nothing to do with each other then that means that Boris Joihnson gained his huge majority in spite of Btexit and not because of it. That thought is far more scary than brexit itself.
    Who has claimed the referendum and election result had nothing to do with each other? They clearly did.

    The Tories took votes from Labour mainly because Labour had an incoherent Brexit policy and the Tories had a very simple one which appealed to Brexit supporting previously Labour voters. Brexit was a major factor in the Tories getting an 80 seat majority.

    But it is you who keeps using the 2019 election outcome to say that the electorate supported Brexit through their vote. Most didn't.

    Most people who voted in 2019 supported parties that wanted to reverse Brexit (Lib Dems) or hold a second referendum on the emerging deal - with a probable recommendation to reject (the others). Most people wanted a second bite at the Brexit question. But it wasn't a Brexit referendum it was a general election - so the 'Get Brexit Done' Tories won the argument at the ballot box.

  16. #56

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    No you can't if you refuse to see it. But I think you'll find that largely, the seats in the labour 'red wall' that turned blue whould be found to be in areas where the referendum vote was predominantly to leave.
    But of course Brext had ablsolutely nothing to do with the election result.
    Hasn't it occurred to any remainers that if, as they assert, the referendum and the election result had nothing to do with each other then that means that Boris Joihnson gained his huge majority in spite of Btexit and not because of it. That thought is far more scary than brexit itself.
    No remainers are asserting that.

    I said you can't make the conclusion that a Tory win meant people voted to leave because it's counted very differently.

  17. #57
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    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    [QUOTE=lardy;5162822]That's why people bring it up; referendums and elections operate differently, so you can't conclude that people voted for Brexit in the General Election just because a pro-Brexit party ended up with more seats.[/QU

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  18. #58
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    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    No remainers are asserting that.

    I said you can't make the conclusion that a Tory win meant people voted to leave because it's counted very differently.
    I know what you said but I think you're wrong.
    how do you know that NO remainers are asserting that/They change their argument every day. And all the insults and vitriol about something they can do nothing about.

  19. #59

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Is it really that much of a false equivalence comparing those that believe That Trump had the election stolen and Remainers who for years denied the legitimacy of the Brexit Vote?

  20. #60

    Re: For those who voted 'to get Brexit done'

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    I know what you said but I think you're wrong.
    how do you know that NO remainers are asserting that/They change their argument every day. And all the insults and vitriol about something they can do nothing about.
    Ridiculous semantics. I could look at your post:

    "Hasn't it occurred to any remainers that if, as they assert, the referendum and the election result had nothing to do with each other"

    and suggest that when you say "any remainers/they" you're talking about ALL remainers.

    But I won't because they're obviously figures of speech. Let's not sink to this.

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