This Eu vaccine row

[bigjoe]

Then again, they could not!
They haven't said it is unsafe they are only questioning the level of efficacy, so in a few months time when their over 65s are dying for lavck of any vaccine at all lets see what their people think.
But of course if it really concerns you just make sure none of your family over 65 gets the vaccine in question.

And why would we not be able to get the other vaccines?

(just in case somebody else is interested in bringing this back to the vaccination issue) - Yes, the Germans are saying its efficacy is unproven for over 65s. This is because most testing was done on younger people, partly due to the hope that they'd be more resilient to any possible vaccine side-effects. There isn't much data for over 65s as they were deliberately not targeted in the trials. However, there is no evidence to say that the efficacy is very much different in the over 65s. It would not be surprising if it'd be lower as older people (ahem , me) typically do not produce as many antibodies as a younger person after vaccination.
AZ claim that their limited results suggest that the vaccine is effective for over 65s (they do not claim any more as I guess that the sample size is probably too small to be statistically significant).
However, you could see who was being hospitalised due to COVID. Those people were used to determine which parts of the population were most vulnerable and most likely to take up beds. This was at least partly how it was decided who should be vaccinated during the first round(s) of vaccination (I don't know how these hospital figures have changed with the new variants).

As there's nothing to suggest that it doesn't work for over 65's, it does seem like a bit of a political call. If they do want to stop it, logically, they should now target the most vulnerable groups under 65.

[the other bob wilson]

(just in case somebody else is interested in bringing this back to the vaccination issue) - Yes, the Germans are saying its efficacy is unproven for over 65s. This is because most testing was done on younger people, partly due to the hope that they'd be more resilient to any possible vaccine side-effects. There isn't much data for over 65s as they were deliberately not targeted in the trials. However, there is no evidence to say that the efficacy is very much different in the over 65s. It would not be surprising if it'd be lower as older people (ahem , me) typically do not produce as many antibodies as a younger person after vaccination.
AZ claim that their limited results suggest that the vaccine is effective for over 65s (they do not claim any more as I guess that the sample size is probably too small to be statistically significant).
However, you could see who was being hospitalised due to COVID. Those people were used to determine which parts of the population were most vulnerable and most likely to take up beds. This was at least partly how it was decided who should be vaccinated during the first round(s) of vaccination (I don't know how these hospital figures have changed with the new variants).

As there's nothing to suggest that it doesn't work for over 65's, it does seem like a bit of a political call. If they do want to stop it, logically, they should now target the most vulnerable groups under 65.

Good post, but I’m afraid I have to bring politics into it again with regard to the use of the word “libertarian” because it seems to me that it is at the heart of the different emphasis’ that we’re getting from the UK and Germany regarding the AZ vaccine. I’m no expert, but it looks like the UK Government, with its libertarian instincts at PM and Cabinet levels, has, for want of better term, been prepared to allow and encouraged the licensing authorities to take a bit of a punt on the vaccines efficacy in over 65s whereas the Germans are being more cautious.

Different conclusions are being drawn from the same information and, for myself as someone who is sixty five a week today, I’m pretty content to accept that if the data says that the vaccine is generally effective against under 65s, then it’s hardly as if it’s going to be a waste of time for those older than that.

However, let’s face it, the UK Government’s instincts have generally been a bit of a disaster when it comes to the virus haven’t they. Libertarianism can be a good thing in many cases, but the figures for countries such as the USA, Brazil, Sweden and the UK suggest that a pandemic is not a situation where regulation should be eased, so there is a nagging suspicion that the UK Government’s laissez faire attitude could again be costing the country dear - in this case when it comes to AZ vaccine and over sixty fives.

[Croesy Blue]

That doesn’t mean shit to some people who have an inflexible narrative.
“Post Brexit Britain must fail at all costs”

I think the narrative here is wrong about remainers loving the EU at all costs. People voted to remain in the EU because they thought remaining in a large trading block and allowing freedom of movement was a good thing for the U.K.

It doesn’t mean they don’t think the EU as an organisation needs a big change and isn’t a bunch of *****.

It’s just we did quite a good job of changing them from the inside whereas now we have no say in a trading bloc that has a huge effect on our economy.

[xsnaggle]

I think the narrative here is wrong about remainers loving the EU at all costs. People voted to remain in the EU because they thought remaining in a large trading block and allowing freedom of movement was a good thing for the U.K.

It doesn’t mean they don’t think the EU as an organisation needs a big change and isn’t a bunch of *****.

It’s just we did quite a good job of changing them from the inside whereas now we have no say in a trading bloc that has a huge effect on our economy.

for the real explanation of why UK should be in the EU listen to Sir Humphrey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYqB0uTKlE&t=2s

[Elwood Blues]

Yes, you're missing the fact that the EU are not getting something they've paid for fairly and squarely.

Don't think you could have read my post properly

I'm not denying that the EU are due something that they have paid, or will pay for.

I am saying that they cannot expect this to be fulfilled at the expense of the UK not getting something that we have (in your words) paid for fairly and squarely when our contract was signed three months earlier

Their argument is with Astra Zeneca and as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread the terms of the contract may allow for the delay (they will still get their vaccines) as long as Astra Zeneca have made their best efforts to fulfil the contract in time.

The devil is in the detail and of course Astra Zeneca will have to convince the EU that they have done their best.

Perhaps if the EU hadn't messed about, signed a contract a few months earlier and given Astra Zeneca more time to organise a complex production set up they wouldn't be in this situation.

[jon1959]

I think the narrative here is wrong about remainers loving the EU at all costs. People voted to remain in the EU because they thought remaining in a large trading block and allowing freedom of movement was a good thing for the U.K.

It doesn’t mean they don’t think the EU as an organisation needs a big change and isn’t a bunch of *****.

It’s just we did quite a good job of changing them from the inside whereas now we have no say in a trading bloc that has a huge effect on our economy.

There were a lot of different reasons for people to vote Remain. The ones you have put forward about collective weight as a trading bloc and freedom of movement were major ones for a lot of people. But the reason that the Dennis Skinner view had shrunk so much in the labour and trade union movement (certainly compared to the dominant anti-EEC view in the 1970s when it was seen as 'the bosses club') is that the EU in 2016 was seen as the champion and guarantor of employment rights and environmental standards - and as generally progressive. Some of that was myth - much like most of the Brexit arguments - but the TUC and most affiliated unions were persuaded. They also accepted the 'stronger together' pitch, and the need for Europe to hold its own against the USA, China etc. No-one I knew who voted Remain did so without wanting major EU reform

[xsnaggle]

There were a lot of different reasons for people to vote Remain. The ones you have put forward about collective weight as a trading bloc and freedom of movement were major ones for a lot of people. But the reason that the Dennis Skinner view had shrunk so much in the labour and trade union movement (certainly compared to the dominant anti-EEC view in the 1970s when it was seen as 'the bosses club') is that the EU in 2016 was seen as the champion and guarantor of employment rights and environmental standards - and as generally progressive. Some of that was myth - much like most of the Brexit arguments - but the TUC and most affiliated unions were persuaded. They also accepted the 'stronger together' pitch, and the need for Europe to hold its own against the USA, China etc. No-one I knew who voted Remain did so without wanting major EU reform

Thanks for that.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

There were a lot of different reasons for people to vote Remain. The ones you have put forward about collective weight as a trading bloc and freedom of movement were major ones for a lot of people. But the reason that the Dennis Skinner view had shrunk so much in the labour and trade union movement (certainly compared to the dominant anti-EEC view in the 1970s when it was seen as 'the bosses club') is that the EU in 2016 was seen as the champion and guarantor of employment rights and environmental standards - and as generally progressive. Some of that was myth - much like most of the Brexit arguments - but the TUC and most affiliated unions were persuaded. They also accepted the 'stronger together' pitch, and the need for Europe to hold its own against the USA, China etc. No-one I knew who voted Remain did so without wanting major EU reform

And my friends also , even those who are left wing tories knew things had to change

But Boris and his mob have been stoking up the fires for years with the likes of Peter Bone on the back benches rallying the troops

I enjoyed listening to Skinner, it was great seeing him stick it to the tories but Benn loved being on Question Time a bit too much for me .

[the other bob wilson]

One by product of this thread is that the Tories on here really need to update their Labour bogymen - Benn and Skinner? One of them has been dead for seven years and the other one will be eighty nine in less than a fortnight! With Corbyn looking like yesterday's man and Livingston no longer a member of the party I believe, who are the Tories going to terrify their children and grand children with stories about what will happen if Labour ever regain power from now on?

[Wash DC Blue]

One by product of this thread is that the Tories on here really need to update their Labour bogymen - Benn and Skinner? One of them has been dead for seven years and the other one will be eighty nine in less than a fortnight! With Corbyn looking like yesterday's man and Livingston no longer a member of the party I believe, who are the Tories going to terrify their children and grand children with stories about what will happen if Labour ever regain power from now on?

I had the utmost admiration for Tony Benn and am also fond of Dennis Skinner.
Far from Bogey Men to me.
Corbyn on the other hand...

I want to see a strong Labour Party that reconnects with its working class voters.

[xsnaggle]

One by product of this thread is that the Tories on here really need to update their Labour bogymen - Benn and Skinner? One of them has been dead for seven years and the other one will be eighty nine in less than a fortnight! With Corbyn looking like yesterday's man and Livingston no longer a member of the party I believe, who are the Tories going to terrify their children and grand children with stories about what will happen if Labour ever regain power from now on?

Scare their chidren with Stop being so melodramatic!!

[Croesy Blue]

Scare their chidren with Stop being so melodramatic!!

I wonder if he was being 100% serious

[life on mars]

Bloody hell UK vaccinetastic

[xsnaggle]

I wonder if he was being 100% serious

He clearyl wasn't but even so.......

[life on mars]

One by product of this thread is that the Tories on here really need to update their Labour bogymen - Benn and Skinner? One of them has been dead for seven years and the other one will be eighty nine in less than a fortnight! With Corbyn looking like yesterday's man and Livingston no longer a member of the party I believe, who are the Tories going to terrify their children and grand children with stories about what will happen if Labour ever regain power from now on?

Doesn't that work both ways with the Labour devotes and their labels with their bad witches that were Thatcher and now Patel or as some call her bad coconut , and the fat ,red faced gammon , boggy men. ??

[the other bob wilson]

Doesn't that work both ways with the Labour devotes and their labels with their bad witches that were Thatcher and now Patel or as some call her bad coconut , and the fat ,red faced gammon , boggy men. ??

I don’t count Wash DC Blue in this because it appears I may have misjudged him, but the reaction my post got is so predictable in that two of the leading few candidates I had in my mind to reply to it did so n a manner which didn’t surprise me.

[xsnaggle]

I don’t count Wash DC Blue in this because it appears I may have misjudged him, but the reaction my post got is so predictable in that two of the leading few candidates I had in my mind to reply to it did so n a manner which didn’t surprise me.

Only one problem with that. Other than Wash DC blue I was the only person who replied unless you mean the person you were replying to, in which case why not say so? And I replied only to laugh at your kid comment.
So who is the invisible man?

[the other bob wilson]

You’re really hard work, I meant you and LOM - LOM never misses a chance to knock Labour and, although you get all indignant when people call you a Tory, you don’t half do a good impersonation of one on here if you aren’t one.

Also, that’s the second time in a week I’ve whooshed you - you don’t know me as well as you think you do because you appear to think everything I post on here is meant to be deadly serious.

[goats]

One by product of this thread is that the Tories on here really need to update their Labour bogymen - Benn and Skinner? One of them has been dead for seven years and the other one will be eighty nine in less than a fortnight! With Corbyn looking like yesterday's man and Livingston no longer a member of the party I believe, who are the Tories going to terrify their children and grand children with stories about what will happen if Labour ever regain power from now on?

They need to get a party together first, as do the Liberals.....I like the libs, swing down the middle and pinch the best bits of the other two twats.....

[xsnaggle]

You’re really hard work, I meant you and LOM - LOM never misses a chance to knock Labour and, although you get all indignant when people call you a Tory, you don’t half do a good impersonation of one on here if you aren’t one.

Also, that’s the second time in a week I’ve whooshed you - you don’t know me as well as you think you do because you appear to think everything I post on here is meant to be deadly serious.

I don't know you at all. As for being totally tory I was referred by someone on here the other day as Gethin. That's not very tory is it?
what I dislike is certain people who will attackanything which the Westminster governemtn says without even considering it, just because it is tory.
I've never been a political animal but the level of bile and unthinking prejudice I see here astounds me, honestly!

[Croesy Blue]

I don't know you at all. As for being totally tory I was referred by someone on here the other day as Gethin. That's not very tory is it?
what I dislike is certain people who will attackanything which the Westminster governemtn says without even considering it, just because it is tory.
I've never been a political animal but the level of bile and unthinking prejudice I see here astounds me, honestly!

Maybe it was autocorrected from something else? Cretin maybe

[Dobbo]

This is a golden example of why we are better off outside of the EU - a gigantic money wasting cabal, unable to make a decision and thinking they can do whatever they like, when they like.

The EU are just bullies,glad we are out of it.

[the other bob wilson]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-eu-regulator

[Croesy Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...l-eu-regulator

Good news all round really. Means the vaccine has now passed through a few regulators and means the EU can start vaccinating people and keeping them safe.

[xsnaggle]

Maybe it was autocorrected from something else? Cretin maybe

No, but nice try lol. It was in response to a post saying that in certain circumstacnes the media always try to find fault and that the responsible person in the Welsh goverment was unfairly in a no-win situation.
The actual comment Was 'Mr Gethin'