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Thread: This Eu vaccine row

  1. #176

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    nothing to do with me

  2. #177

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    I don't think for a minute that is correct as there are over 50 vaccines in development.

    https://www.raps.org/news-and-articl...accine-tracker

    I think the UK have ordered six.

    https://www.cityam.com/which-covid-v...nment-ordered/
    347m doses across 7 suppliers. My point stands.

  3. #178

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    The EU didn't only cock up in relation to Article 16; they also were mistaken in relation to contract law according to a Commercial lawyer. This is an extract from a very long article.

    [I]While European ministers have publicly insisted that they are entitled to jabs under the terms of the AstraZeneca contract, Steven Barrett - a respected commercial lawyer with the Radcliffe Chambers - told MailOnline that it actually shows the opposite.

    'The EU's public position is legally unsustainable, and they have made public comments that are demonstrably wrong,' he said.

    Pulling apart the EU contract, Mr Barrett pointed to section 5.1 as the most damning, saying that it 'clearly shows' the company is only under a 'Best Reasonable Effort' clause to supply the EU - as boss Pascal Soriot has stated.

    While section 5.4 does state that factories in the UK are considered to be part of the EU under the terms of the contract, he called this 'a distraction' that 'is not relevant to the EU's point'.

    'This is actually a mildly embarrassing climbdown from the EU, who have a rule that all vaccines used in the EU have to be made in the EU.

    'What they have done in that clause is say, for the purposes of this contract, the UK counts as the EU.' But, he added, it does not mean they are entitled to doses made in UK factories.] In addition, clause 6.2 of the contract states that 'competing agreements' signed by AstraZeneca might affect the supply of vaccines to the EU.

    'They knew there would be competing agreements,' Mr Barrett said. 'Everyone in the world knew there would be competing agreements. They knew that might mean doses were delayed.

    'I believe the EU is publicly asserting that it now has a right to jump the queue and take doses that belong to other people. That is expressly wrong,' he added.
    Not sure anyone has claimed that the EU hasn't made a monumental cock up on this?

  4. #179
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    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiss Peter View Post
    347m doses across 7 suppliers. My point stands.
    Considering that when they ordered they didn't know which would work or when the ones that did would come on stream I think you'd have to agree they did pretty well to plan that way.
    Or do you think they should have just ordered 128 million from 1 supplier and hoped for the best?
    The EU was panicking about not getting a vaccine that it hadn't even authorised. Thats preparation and planning for you. lol

  5. #180

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    Considering that when they ordered they didn't know which would work or when the ones that did would come on stream I think you'd have to agree they did pretty well to plan that way.
    Or do you think they should have just ordered 128 million from 1 supplier and hoped for the best/
    The Euwass panicking about not getting a vaccine that it hadn't even authorised. Thats preparation and planning for you. lol
    You carry on banging your anti-EU head lol. No one has claimed they have done well as far as I can see. UK's decision to buy everything in sight definitely a good one from a getting people vaccinated point of view. Just asking - will there be a price to pay down the line? We don't know yet.

  6. #181

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    To be fair you are both tories so its more than likely you will agree on almost everything
    I've only just seen this.

    I didn't really want this thread to descend into the usual Tory/Labour and Leaver/Remainer garbage

    However I recognise that these thread have a life of their own and often go down different tracks.

    Therefore I will say to you Sludge that the two main parties are both broad churches

    Just because two people are Tories ( or in my case a tory voter as I am not a tory activist just as many who voteLabour are just Labour voters not necessarily fully fledged socialists) doesn't mean that they agree on everything)

    Talking a load of round objects there Sludge

    I know it is hard for you to understand but it is not just the noble socialists who can have grown up discussions

  7. #182

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    I've only just seen this.

    I didn't really want this thread to descend into the usual Tory/Labour and Leaver/Remainer garbage

    However I recognise that these thread have a life of their own and often go down different tracks.

    Therefore I will say to you Sludge that the two main parties are both broad churches

    Just because two people are Tories ( or in my case a tory voter as I am not a tory activist just as many who voteLabour are just Labour voters not necessarily fully fledged socialists) doesn't mean that they agree on everything)

    Talking a load of round objects there Sludge

    I know it is hard for you to understand but it is not just the noble socialists who can have grown up discussions
    I could only have a grown up conversation with a left wing Conservative like Ken Clarke, massively pro Europe, pro NHS and totally against Iain Duncan Smiths assault on the welfare state which will over the next few years make people realise why the tories are seen as the nasty party . I could never ever vote for or prop up a party that has caused so much pain for vulnerable people . People are free to chose to vote for whoever they wish but if I was having to apply for state benefits the last thing I would be doing is voting tory . I am staggered that some people do . But there you go .

  8. #183

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    You are living in America and seem to be , on the evidence of recent activity , a libertarian in many of your views .

    Boris Johnson and his crew are libertarians , not to be confused with Liberal of course

    Your attack on the EU is an example of this

    I am of course going to take the piss in a light hearted way of someone who has Adam Smith type views on how those of us who are living over here should be

    The country voted to leave Europe, in my opinion a staggeringly stupid decision but that decision is now being put into practice . But basically close on half the electorate who voted were against us leaving .

    The signs of problems are already there , trade is sliding away , the future is uncertain and economists will always disagree but the vast majority of economic forecasters and analysts are trending that the decision to leave what you call a cabal is going to be a bad one for the future of this country . I used to follow the work of capital economics who are generally regarded as one of the most accurate analysts of economic growth , trending and what they said was not happy reading .
    Roger Bootle is the founder of Capital Economics He is also currently its chairman.

    In May 2020 he said

    "All along, the costs and delays to be incurred by business once we have fully left the EU were grossly exaggerated – even if we leave without a trade deal and trade with the EU under WTO terms. Most of our non-EU trade, including with our largest single trading partner, the US, is currently done on WTO terms."

    Note the words in bold.

    He also said in June 2020

    "Turning to Brexit, Mr Bootle argued it was unsurprising that the transition negotiations have gone badly – this will not be for economic reasons, but rather because of political considerations on the EU side. He said the EU tends to do deals at the last minute. Mr Bootle said there was no risk if the UK left the single market and customs union on WTO terms. He argued that whatever difficulties there would be, these would now be easier to absorb because volume of trade will be much lower thanks to Coronavirus. Mr Bootle maintained that the case for exiting transition on time remains very strong."

    So from his comments in bold he couldn't see any problems with no deal so presumably didn't see any with the deal we got.


    You obviously didn't follow the work of the chairman of the company Sludge. To be fair, I will note that he is a known Eurosceptic

  9. #184

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I could only have a grown up conversation with a left wing Conservative like Ken Clarke, massively pro Europe, pro NHS and totally against Iain Duncan Smiths assault on the welfare state which will over the next few years make people realise why the tories are seen as the nasty party . I could never ever vote for or prop up a party that has caused so much pain for vulnerable people . People are free to chose to vote for whoever they wish but if I was having to apply for state benefits the last thing I would be doing is voting tory . I am staggered that some people do . But there you go .
    Both main parties have over the years caused much pain to vulnerable people I am afraid Sludge. And people on State benefits have suffered under both. I was on state benefits for a time under Labour. They were no better.

  10. #185

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    Roger Bootle is the founder of Capital Economics He is also currently its chairman.

    In May 2020 he said

    "All along, the costs and delays to be incurred by business once we have fully left the EU were grossly exaggerated – even if we leave without a trade deal and trade with the EU under WTO terms. Most of our non-EU trade, including with our largest single trading partner, the US, is currently done on WTO terms."

    Note the words in bold.

    He also said in June 2020

    "Turning to Brexit, Mr Bootle argued it was unsurprising that the transition negotiations have gone badly – this will not be for economic reasons, but rather because of political considerations on the EU side. He said the EU tends to do deals at the last minute. Mr Bootle said there was no risk if the UK left the single market and customs union on WTO terms. He argued that whatever difficulties there would be, these would now be easier to absorb because volume of trade will be much lower thanks to Coronavirus. Mr Bootle maintained that the case for exiting transition on time remains very strong."

    So from his comments in bold he couldn't see any problems with no deal so presumably didn't see any with the deal we got.


    You obviously didn't follow the work of the chairman of the company Sludge. To be fair, I will note that he is a known Eurosceptic
    You are right, I didn't, I had a feed from his analysts who were certainly not saying what he was . I will get on to them straight away . Capital Economics are used by many investment banks due to their forecasting . I shall follow my nose .

  11. #186

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    You are right, I didn't, I had a feed from his analysts who were certainly not saying what he was . I will get on to them straight away . Capital Economics are used by many investment banks due to their forecasting . I shall follow my nose .
    Perhaps he should sack them

    Or perhaps his board should sack him!!

  12. #187

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    Both main parties have over the years caused much pain to vulnerable people I am afraid Sludge. And people on State benefits have suffered under both. I was on state benefits for a time under Labour. They were no better.
    Oh no , its far far worse now

    Those unable to work under the tories and needing extra help under what was previously a long term benefit , disability living allowance , now have to fill in stressful , anxiety proving forms and in most cases are called in to invasive interviews not with doctors , but by quickly trained civvies working for private firms like atos and capita ......peoples lives decided by someone working for a company whose reward from the government is reducing those on benefits that they clearly need . If you are saying it was worse under labour , who are far from perfect , you are not telling the truth . Disability living allowance once granted was awarded for terms like ten years then reviewed . Now PIP , if people are lucky enough to pass the stringent tests is typically given for 3 years then , even if you have a disability of health condition that clearly isn't going to get better , sod that the DWP send vulnerable and unwell people another form . I used to advise and help many people with benefits and still signpost people to the right places . This govermentvare a disgrace .

  13. #188

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    Perhaps he should sack them

    Or perhaps his board should sack him!!
    The information I have had from capital economics , especially around the time of the election of Cameron and clegg and the fears of a run on the markets was directly opposite of his views which are more than a bit euro sceptic , I think its fair to say .

  14. #189

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Oh no , its far far worse now

    Those unable to work under the tories and needing extra help under what was previously a long term benefit , disability living allowance , now have to fill in stressful , anxiety proving forms and in most cases are called in to invasive interviews not with doctors , but by quickly trained civvies working for private firms like atos and capita ......peoples lives decided by someone working for a company whose reward from the government is reducing those on benefits that they clearly need . If you are saying it was worse under labour , who are far from perfect , you are not telling the truth . Disability living allowance once granted was awarded for terms like ten years then reviewed . Now PIP , if people are lucky enough to pass the stringent tests is typically given for 3 years then , even if you have a disability of health condition that clearly isn't going to get better , sod that the DWP send vulnerable and unwell people another form . I used to advise and help many people with benefits and still signpost people to the right places . This govermentvare a disgrace .
    I agree with you on much of PIP. MY wife got the full mobility on the basis of the interview but only 10 of the 12 points for care which was a joke. I pointed out several errors the reviewer had made and got an extra two points so she got the necessary 12 for the full amount.

    However, she should have got at least another 8 points on matters that the council and care agency care plans both stressed, we pointed out in the interview and the Governments own guidance for Interviewers said they should award points for!!

    BUT.


    Labour opened the door to this first when they started to use private firms to do the interview for the random assessments for DLA. I did my wife's last DLA application in 2008. She wasn't picked for a face to face assessment but from what I read at the time there were very similar comments from those who suffered them as there are for the PIP assessments now.

    Then Labour brought in ESA in 2008 for new claimants and the need for everyone to be assessed. I again read similar comments as for the PIP assessments..

    This opened the door for the Conservatives to revamp DLA as PIP when they came in.

    This is not to say that the Conservatives do not bear a lot of the responsibility for the over bureaucratic and unfair PIP


    But Labour also share the blame for introducing private companies to do the assessments and then introducing near universal instead of random testing into the benefits system for the disabled

    This opened the door for the Conservatives to do the PIP revamp in their early years

  15. #190

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    I agree with you on much of PIP. MY wife got the full mobility on the basis of the interview but only 10 of the 12 points for care which was a joke. I pointed out several errors the reviewer had made and got an extra two points so she got the necessary 12 for the full amount.

    However, she should have got at least another 8 points on matters that the council and care agency care plans both stressed, we pointed out in the interview and the Governments own guidance for Interviewers said they should award points for!!

    BUT.


    Labour opened the door to this first when they started to use private firms to do the interview for the random assessments for DLA. I did my wife's last DLA application in 2008. She wasn't picked for a face to face assessment but from what I read at the time there were very similar comments from those who suffered them as there are for the PIP assessments now.

    Then Labour brought in ESA in 2008 for new claimants and the need for everyone to be assessed. I again read similar comments as for the PIP assessments..

    This opened the door for the Conservatives to revamp DLA as PIP when they came in.

    This is not to say that the Conservatives do not bear a lot of the responsibility for the over bureaucratic and unfair PIP


    But Labour also share the blame for introducing private companies to do the assessments and then introducing near universal instead of random testing into the benefits system for the disabled

    This opened the door for the Conservatives to do the PIP revamp in their early years
    It certainly wasn't perfect under labour but assessments under labour were on the whole cumbersome and tiresome but the amount of face to face interviews for esa and pip now is staggering . The tories have kept changing the forms making the hoops smaller and smaller and whilst previously people with complex needs could send letters of support from consultants giving their expert view , people are now not asked to send these in . Which clearly means there is an agenda . Its all very well simplifying the benefits system but putting vulnerable people through such stress is a disgrace . The tories have had 11 years now to listen to welfare advice services and award longer benefit entitlement but many people go through the trauma of renewing their forms , getting interviewed , having to appeal , eventually winning then 18 months later another form comes through the post . People with MS , Muscular Dystrophy , Arthritis , Fibromyalgia etc dont get better Iain Duncan Smith , complete idiot . I think I might have advised you before but pm if you need any links , several places in South wales and nationally help people out like your wife and yourself who should be entitled to Severe Disablement Allowance , PIP and carers allowance and if your wife has complex care needs attendance allowance as well.

  16. #191

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    It certainly wasn't perfect under labour but assessments under labour were on the whole cumbersome and tiresome but the amount of face to face interviews for esa and pip now is staggering . The tories have kept changing the forms making the hoops smaller and smaller and whilst previously people with complex needs could send letters of support from consultants giving their expert view , people are now not asked to send these in . Which clearly means there is an agenda . Its all very well simplifying the benefits system but putting vulnerable people through such stress is a disgrace . The tories have had 11 years now to listen to welfare advice services and award longer benefit entitlement but many people go through the trauma of renewing their forms , getting interviewed , having to appeal , eventually winning then 18 months later another form comes through the post . People with MS , Muscular Dystrophy , Arthritis , Fibromyalgia etc dont get better Iain Duncan Smith , complete idiot . I think I might have advised you before but pm if you need any links , several places in South wales and nationally help people out like your wife and yourself who should be entitled to Severe Disablement Allowance , PIP and carers allowance and if your wife has complex care needs attendance allowance as well.
    PIP and Attendance Allowance are overlapping benefits so wouldn't be able to get both.
    Severe Disablement Allowance has been replaced with Employment and Support Allowance (ESA).

    People can still send in evidence with the claim form even though they're told this isn't needed. Just make sure the evidence is relevant and focused to the activities that are being assessed and not general comment about having a condition.

    Assessment of health conditions doesn't need to be stressful if a) there weren't so many scary stories about it and b) these scary stories weren't based on some truth.

    I wonder how many people wait until appeal stage in order to get advice at how to effectively describe the impact of their condition? Should it be so tricky that people need advice? Ideally not.

  17. #192

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Oh no , its far far worse now

    Those unable to work under the tories and needing extra help under what was previously a long term benefit , disability living allowance , now have to fill in stressful , anxiety proving forms and in most cases are called in to invasive interviews not with doctors , but by quickly trained civvies working for private firms like atos and capita ......peoples lives decided by someone working for a company whose reward from the government is reducing those on benefits that they clearly need . If you are saying it was worse under labour , who are far from perfect , you are not telling the truth . Disability living allowance once granted was awarded for terms like ten years then reviewed . Now PIP , if people are lucky enough to pass the stringent tests is typically given for 3 years then , even if you have a disability of health condition that clearly isn't going to get better , sod that the DWP send vulnerable and unwell people another form . I used to advise and help many people with benefits and still signpost people to the right places . This govermentvare a disgrace .
    The DWP bases the amount you get on your application, and the length of your award on the likelihood of your condition changing. Of course, that might not always end up with a fair decision in reality.

    The assessments are done by health professionals rather than civies. Not always people who specialise in the health condition that person has.

    However, people who are awarded the highest level of support under PIP – and where their needs are expected to stay the same or increase – will receive an ongoing award of PIP with a light touch review every 10 years.

  18. #193

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    What's all this got to do with the EU vaccine row?

  19. #194
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    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    The DWP bases the amount you get on your application, and the length of your award on the likelihood of your condition changing. Of course, that might not always end up with a fair decision in reality.

    The assessments are done by health professionals rather than civies. Not always people who specialise in the health condition that person has.

    However, people who are awarded the highest level of support under PIP – and where their needs are expected to stay the same or increase – will receive an ongoing award of PIP with a light touch review every 10 years.
    .
    I can tell you from experience that, that doesn't happen. I've had to support people to appeal a decision after losing their PIP claim despite having progressive disabilities.

    The fact that so many appeals are won by applicants show that the model doesn't work and needs to be overhauled now. It's actually coating the DWP more money than it's saving.

    I've done over 50 appeals in the last few years that all went to tribunal... Literally all over the decisions were overturned.

  20. #195

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    PIP and Attendance Allowance are overlapping benefits so wouldn't be able to get both.
    Severe Disablement Allowance has been replaced with Employment and Support Allowance (ESA).

    People can still send in evidence with the claim form even though they're told this isn't needed. Just make sure the evidence is relevant and focused to the activities that are being assessed and not general comment about having a condition.

    Assessment of health conditions doesn't need to be stressful if a) there weren't so many scary stories about it and b) these scary stories weren't based on some truth.

    I wonder how many people wait until appeal stage in order to get advice at how to effectively describe the impact of their condition? Should it be so tricky that people need advice? Ideally not.
    The PIP form states do not send in letters from consultants , it may lead to you being asked in for a face to face assessment

    I helped someone over the phone with one two weeks ago

    Its incredibly stressful for many many people

    I phoned up the DWP line for someone

    57 minutes

  21. #196

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    The DWP bases the amount you get on your application, and the length of your award on the likelihood of your condition changing. Of course, that might not always end up with a fair decision in reality.

    The assessments are done by health professionals rather than civies. Not always people who specialise in the health condition that person has.

    However, people who are awarded the highest level of support under PIP – and where their needs are expected to stay the same or increase – will receive an ongoing award of PIP with a light touch review every 10 years.
    a lot of people applying for the modern benefits are very vulnerable , they don't get advice and support from welfare agencies, disability advice centres . Often the information the DWP bases the information on is provided by a person who is under great stress . No wonder they make mistakes .

    Its no good an occupational therapist who works with disabled kids interviewing someone with manic depression

    If someone has manic depression , which is a lifelong chronic decision why are people with this condition being given 3 year awards ?

    If you think people with MS , Bipolar, etc are all getting long term PIP awards then I am going to have to disagree with you

  22. #197

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    What's all this got to do with the EU vaccine row?
    Nothing. But as often happens it got sidetracked
    .
    The thread had started to wander off into a leave/remain and tory/labour direction and made a reply to a post fro Sludge that was only meant to get a single response from Sludge.

    Then we got carried away.......

  23. #198

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Whats antisemitism got to do with our relationship with the EU ?

    Brexit divided the country , I think it was an insane decision but there you go

    When you leave your wife you don't expect her to be nice to you

    This is just the start

    The utter nonsense of an island that has a border in its top corner being at the front of this mess is exactly why we should have stayed in the EU in the first place

    But there you go , those that have voted for a free United Kingdom can point out all these faults and what a bully boy Europe is all day , it doesn't matter

    In 20 years we may have some idea of how things stand but the portent is a shitstorm without us in there , the views of economic analysts far more in touch than most of us on here .
    We'll be fine dont , worry upward and onward .

  24. #199
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    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    We'll be fine dont , worry upward and onward .
    There is no point in telling slduge that.
    The truth as I see it from his posts is that he wants it to be a shitstorm just to prove himself right. He has convinced himself of it and is determined that it will be so.
    Which implies to me that he doesn't actually give a ashit about the country doing well, he wants it to fail so he can tell everyone he was right.

  25. #200

    Re: This Eu vaccine row

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    i see I didn't misjudge you at all.

    The EU have got this wrong, I think almost everyone agrees on it, but it's interesting to see Leave voters and/or supporters descending on this one thread like hungry pigs around a trough - it rather tends to support the notion that there's been little or nothing before now to get their teeth into.
    Having made the mistake of helping this thread off track by a good discussion with Sludge about DLA/PIP, I will try not to do the same again. I will therefore not discuss Leave voters or Remain voters or pigs in a trough or gammon and concentrate on replying to your last sentence

    There may have been little or nothing for leave supporter to get their teeth into (in the last month possibly correct, in the last 4 years questionable but that's another thread, let's not get side tracked again! )

    But this comedy of errors was a Doozie and has turned into the gift that kept giving.

    First the EU as I pointed out at the start seemed to suggest that Astra Zeneca should fulfill the contract with them at the expense of us giving them some of our vaccines so that the UK Astra Zeneca contract won't be fulfilled on time even though we signed ours three months before the EU finally got round to signing one!!

    Then the Germans suddenly seem to find that the Astra Zeneca vaccine won't be effective on under 65's and say they won't give it to them, followed Macron sneering that it will have very little effect on the over 65's

    Now, I suppose there is still a chance that they may be right, but several eminent scientists in this country and our regulatory authority disagree with them, and perhaps more important Europe's own medical regulatory authority also seems to think they are wrong.

    Then comes the real killer. They threaten to invoke a part of the Northern Ireland protocol, section 16 (which I suspect was probably there in times of dire emergency), which restrict the free movement of medical vaccines and therefore go against the Belfast agreement which not long ago the EU seemed to regard as sacrosanct.

    Worse than this they don't even appear to have consulted their own member state who are directly involved. Ireland would have been particularly affected if it had got to the stage where the UK decided to take reprisals and invoked section 16 themselves on some other goods.


    Even worse they then seem to try to ay it was a "bureaucratic mistake" when such a decision should surely be taken at the very highest level of the commission i.e by Ursula Von der Leyen and then only I would have though after consultation with all member states and certainly with Ireland.

    Vindictive, bungling, bullying ,spiteful, inefficient, arrogant are all words with are apt here

    I'm sure I have missed somethings they said as well bul
    t let's not overegg the pudding

    Finally by even suggesting that section 16 can be invoked at the drop of a hat, apparently without much discussion, they have may have made it easier for Britain to use or threaten to use it at some time in the future.

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