Songs Of Praise

[Croesy Blue]

[AfricanBluebird]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

Some excellent points of view and also some good banter.

No one can demonstrate and prove the existence of God. Atheists know that and believers who say they can are lying or deluded.

I don't think that its even a believers job to convince people there's a God.

As someone who does believe in God but sees the absolute insanity of it and also the damage and manipulation of religion, I will probably bring negative response from both camps.

I think that religion has both been a cause of good in the world and also the cause of much hatred, death, abuse and corruption. All can be true.

The holy scripture is full of poetic beauty and also some shockingly absurd things.

I find the conservative evangelicalism in the US absolutely abhorrent. But I also see the kindness, gentleness, wisdom and care of some people of faith inspiring.

At the end of the day it's everyone's right to believe and not to believe... And I think everyone, believer or not, should be on a journey to discover their own beliefs or non-belief and many shades in-between.

The damage is done when people are indoctrinated into certain beliefs that removes critical thinking, logic, care and kindness from the equation. Religion is about controling people.

But someone with a quiet, personal faith that is centred on love and kindness surely is a good thing.

If there is a God, and I believe their is, I think he and his son left the building of religion a long time ago.

[jon1959]

I don't believe in God, or gods. He, it or they are a human invention to explain the unknown and give comfort in the face of inevitable death.

But there is a difference between faith in a God and religion. Both are human inventions, but organised religion has been a political and social construct for at least 3000 years (at least in the Abrahamic traditions) and have been responsible for many of the worst crimes and abuses in history. Faith on the other hand can be a very personal ethical code - and useful for defining a set of values and customs that are usually positive - as long as they are not projected onto other people.

I rejected supernatural faith and organised religion when I was 12. I was part of a group of 'young people' ho took part in a structured Congregationalist Church membership programme - six weeks for one night a week with the minister. At then end of that I was out! But I have always had friends and family members around who were believers - usually of the barely questioning type who go along with the stories and the rituals as a social comfort blanket, but a few who agonised about the big questions all their lives. My dad - now dead - went to Church every week and lead a lot of mid-week discussion groups. He hated religion. Described himself as a Secular Christian and (with a group of likeminded people) as The Heretics. I doubt he believed in heaven or hell, God or the Devil. He regarded most of it as metaphor but to my bemusement it came to dominate his life. After he retired he even went on to get a degree and doctorate in theology he was that obsessed!

Straight atheism, simple humanism, is a much more rational and stress free way to live. We are born, we live, we will die - and on the journey we should try to use our opportunities and talents to make the world a bit better according to our own view (not one imposed by a religious or political authority) of what is good and what is bad.

[Tuerto]

I don't believe in God, or gods. He, it or they are a human invention to explain the unknown and give comfort in the face of inevitable death.

But there is a difference between faith in a God and religion. Both are human inventions, but organised religion has been a political and social construct for at least 3000 years (at least in the Abrahamic traditions) and have been responsible for many of the worst crimes and abuses in history. Faith on the other hand can be a very personal ethical code - and useful for defining a set of values and customs that are usually positive - as long as they are not projected onto other people.

I rejected supernatural faith and organised religion when I was 12. I was part of a group of 'young people' ho took part in a structured Congregationalist Church membership programme - six weeks for one night a week with the minister. At then end of that I was out! But I have always had friends and family members around who were believers - usually of the barely questioning type who go along with the stories and the rituals as a social comfort blanket, but a few who agonised about the big questions all their lives. My dad - now dead - went to Church every week and lead a lot of mid-week discussion groups. He hated religion. Described himself as a Secular Christian and (with a group of likeminded people) as The Heretics. I doubt he believed in heaven or hell, God or the Devil. He regarded most of it as metaphor but to my bemusement it came to dominate his life. After he retired he even went on to get a degree and doctorate in theology he was that obsessed!

Straight atheism, simple humanism, is a much more rational and stress free way to live. We are born, we live, we will die - and on the journey we should try to use our opportunities and talents to make the world a bit better according to our own view (not one imposed by a religious or political authority) of what is good and what is bad.

Both yours and African Bluebirds posts are pretty much what i was trying to say. Both excellent posts, they include the nuances that i believe exist with having faith and how it manifests itself in many different ways. My upbringing was religious, i rejected it quite early on, for a time i was prepared to throw arguments at people who had faith, even antagonising them to the point of anger and a break down in communication and understanding. I realised that all i was doing was contributing towards everything i disliked about religion. I realised that it isn't straight forward and most people with faith don't have the answers i was looking for, Neither should they. Maturity led me to understand that faith can mean whatever a person feels at any given time, and it wasn't my place to belittle or criticise those emotions.

[Heisenberg]

It's like they've all attended a course run by splott parker over the weekend or something

What's his quote-fail tally at currently?

[pomeroy]

Very good posts from African Bluebird, John 1959 and Tuerto. We have to be thankful that the majority of posters on this board do not follow the cult of Annism and its seven gospels.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

It has just occurred to me that, statistically, atheists and most believers in deities have more things in common regarding belief systems that you think:

An atheist doesn't believe in the tens of thousands of religions that exist or have existed throughout history on planet Earth.

A believer doesn't believe in the tens of thousands of religions that exist or have existed throughout history on planet Earth - except one.

By the way, if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe those beings are unlikely to believe in any of our local gods.

[Tuerto]

This must be a record, 21 pages in and nobody has thrown any insults-On a religious thread! If god did miracles........

[Taunton Blue Genie]

This must be a record, 21 pages in and nobody has thrown any insults-On a religious thread! If god did miracles........

I will resist the temptation to suggest that you go forth and multiply

[Tuerto]

I will resist the temptation to suggest that you go forth and multiply

[Gofer Blue]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

Some excellent points of view and also some good banter.

No one can demonstrate and prove the existence of God. Atheists know that and believers who say they can are lying or deluded.

I don't think that its even a believers job to convince people there's a God.

As someone who does believe in God but sees the absolute insanity of it and also the damage and manipulation of religion, I will probably bring negative response from both camps.

I think that religion has both been a cause of good in the world and also the cause of much hatred, death, abuse and corruption. All can be true.

The holy scripture is full of poetic beauty and also some shockingly absurd things.

I find the conservative evangelicalism in the US absolutely abhorrent. But I also see the kindness, gentleness, wisdom and care of some people of faith inspiring.

At the end of the day it's everyone's right to believe and not to believe... And I think everyone, believer or not, should be on a journey to discover their own beliefs or non-belief and many shades in-between.

The damage is done when people are indoctrinated into certain beliefs that removes critical thinking, logic, care and kindness from the equation. Religion is about controling people.

But someone with a quiet, personal faith that is centred on love and kindness surely is a good thing.

If there is a God, and I believe their is, I think he and his son left the building of religion a long time ago.

Thank you African Bluebird, spot on, IMO the best, most balanced post in this thread. Ironically Jesus, (who the OP describes as a 2000 year old myth and dismissed by others as a pure fantasy figure) was anti-organised religion. I think if I was going to create a person (fantasy or otherwise) to initiate or promote a controlling religion, Jesus would not be my first choice! I think he would be embarrassed to see what passes for Christianity in some quarters if he came back today.

[delmbox]

What's his quote-fail tally at currently?

37. Would be in the 40's if he hadn't been ill

[splott parker]

37. Would be in the 40's if he hadn't been ill

Jesus Christ, will you two leave it out for God’s sake, I swear on the bible you’re a pair of devils and that’s gospel!!!!!

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Very good posts from African Bluebird, John 1959 and Tuerto. We have to be thankful that the majority of posters on this board do not follow the cult of Annism and its seven gospels.

We shouldn't really be slagging rival message boards...

[xsnaggle]

Tuerto. your comment about the middle ground made me smile.
It reminded me of Dave Allen. He always used to make jokes about God and one day he was asked by someone why he took the mickey ou of god but never out of the devil.

His reply was class. He Said, "I don't beleive in God but I may be wrong and if god exists so does the devil, and there is no sense in pissing off both of them."

[Taunton Blue Genie]

For 5 years I sat opposite and face-to-face a splendid and intelligent colleague who became a good friend. He was then (and probably still is) a part-time lay preacher and I would describe him as a fundamentalist Christian in that he believes in the literal reading of The Bible (talking snake, Adam and Eve etc) and has moved churches if they waver from that line.
We engaged in so many debates about religion (which was far more central to his life than most people) but neither of us persuaded the other to move an inch to the other's point of view, which was fine and he is someone I have enormous respect for.
However, he used to refer to those Christians who interpret any stories in the Bible as allegory (rather than literal truth) as being of the 'Pick and Mix' variety. He could see that my stance was clearly defined and consistent and, strangely enough, I could say the same of his perspective. It was all those in the middle ground that confused the issue

I have to say that he is very decent chap and I didn't realise for about three years that he was paying, despite not being that well off himself, for the schooling of African boy throughout the lad's life, albeit in a church school. My friend was too humble to wear such charity on his sleeve, as it were.

Visiting my friend and his family was always a lovely experience and they were such sweet people that they made The Walton's look like The Krays. Sadly for my friend, his oldest son left the nest to go to Uni and study engineering - and eventually informed his dad that he no longer believed in The Bible. It has devastated the family.

[lisvaneblue]

We shouldn't really be slagging rival message boards...

much to the other boards disappointment the word is not ANNISm, but ANNIMISM

[Tuerto]

Tuerto. your comment about the middle ground made me smile.
It reminded me of Dave Allen. He always used to make jokes about God and one day he was asked by someone why he took the mickey ou of god but never out of the devil.

His reply was class. He Said, "I don't beleive in God but I may be wrong and if god exists so does the devil, and there is no sense in pissing off both of them."

[pomeroy]

much to the other boards disappointment the word is not ANNISm, but ANNIMISM

No it’s Animism where the seven holy books all start with “ I was told “ or “ I have it on good authority “ and the subsequent passages are accepted as literal truth by the disciples.

[lisvaneblue]

No it’s Animism where the seven holy books all start with “ I was told “ or “ I have it on good authority “ and the subsequent passages are accepted as literal truth by the disciples.

I agree apart from one N or two. Originally you mentioned annism, which TBG picked up on

[jeepster]

Tuerto. your comment about the middle ground made me smile.
It reminded me of Dave Allen. He always used to make jokes about God and one day he was asked by someone why he took the mickey ou of god but never out of the devil.

His reply was class. He Said, "I don't beleive in God but I may be wrong and if god exists so does the devil, and there is no sense in pissing off both of them."

Yep surely if you do wrong and go to hell he would welcome you with open arms,well done my man.
Not to a life of pain.

[lisvaneblue]

Thank you African Bluebird, spot on, IMO the best, most balanced post in this thread. Ironically Jesus, (who the OP describes as a 2000 year old myth and dismissed by others as a pure fantasy figure) was anti-organised religion. I think if I was going to create a person (fantasy or otherwise) to initiate or promote a controlling religion, Jesus would not be my first choice! I think he would be embarrassed to see what passes for Christianity in some quarters if he came back today.

I agree with much of what you say. I don't think Jesus was anti-organised religion, he was a rabbi and celebrated in the traditional way. His disagreements with the Pharisees stemmed from the fact that they were more concerned about ceremony than content.....[I]They do all their deeds to be seen by others....they love the place of honour at feasts and the best seats in the synagogue...."
I feel he was a bit of a radical and history shows that he upset the establishment but for good reason..
In this section of the gospel he goes on to say..When you give to the needy sound no trumpet before you..reminded me of TBG comments his Christian friend.

[Tuerto]

I agree with much of what you say. I don't think Jesus was anti-organised religion, he was a rabbi and celebrated in the traditional way. His disagreements with the Pharisees stemmed from the fact that they were more concerned about ceremony than content.....[I]They do all their deeds to be seen by others....they love the place of honour at feasts and the best seats in the synagogue...."
I feel he was a bit of a radical and history shows that he upset the establishment but for good reason..
In this section of the gospel he goes to say..When you give to the needy sound no trumpet before you..reminded me of TBG comments his Christian friend.

Agree, Jesus was obviously a Socialist, i knew that you'd see the light some day

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

If we are given free will by God it either exists outside of God and as such makes him redundant or sidelined in his own (supposed) creation, or it's all part of God's plan and as such is not free will. If God created everything then it's the latter.

I'm not anti-religion - much good work is done by the church, whatever its flavour - but it would be futile to demand its demise. We are tribal, have an egotistical need for "meaning" and have a survival instinct, so we were bound to make up this kind of stuff to make us feel better.

Apparently, scientists reckon we understand 5% of the universe so to jump to conclusions about its origins seems a tad impetuous. In a way, you could say creating gods from our experience is rather reductive.

[Wash DC Blue]

I've enjoyed reading this thread.

Some excellent points of view and also some good banter.

No one can demonstrate and prove the existence of God. Atheists know that and believers who say they can are lying or deluded.

I don't think that its even a believers job to convince people there's a God.

As someone who does believe in God but sees the absolute insanity of it and also the damage and manipulation of religion, I will probably bring negative response from both camps.

I think that religion has both been a cause of good in the world and also the cause of much hatred, death, abuse and corruption. All can be true.

The holy scripture is full of poetic beauty and also some shockingly absurd things.

I find the conservative evangelicalism in the US absolutely abhorrent. But I also see the kindness, gentleness, wisdom and care of some people of faith inspiring.

At the end of the day it's everyone's right to believe and not to believe... And I think everyone, believer or not, should be on a journey to discover their own beliefs or non-belief and many shades in-between.

The damage is done when people are indoctrinated into certain beliefs that removes critical thinking, logic, care and kindness from the equation. Religion is about controling people.

But someone with a quiet, personal faith that is centred on love and kindness surely is a good thing.

If there is a God, and I believe their is, I think he and his son left the building of religion a long time ago.

What a fantastic post!!
👍👍