Songs Of Praise

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

There's no point. The answer will be "God gave mankind free will and therefore men are to blame for such awful atrocities..blah, blah, blah"

It's an easy get out clause for them which is why I asked about children having diseases which are certifiably not man-made. Only 'God' could have decided that these would exist so he is responsible for creating these diseases and allowing innocent children to have them, suffer from them and potentially die from them.

The only way that it isn't God's fault for things like leukemia is if they blame evolution for f**king up our DNA, which, ya'know, ain't going to happen.

If God is the creator , is all powerful , everywhere and benevolent , forgiving , loving and kind then he's got to be responsible for ensuring kids don't die of cancer and if he can't do it he should surely ensure that mankind can do it through medicine

Christians want it both ways

God is all powerful and everywhere. If someone survives a car crash its because the family asked God to save the person by praying or God gave the doctors the knowledge through his power , to treat the person .

If the person dies its either mankind's fault , somebody has sinned or God has decided he wants to take that person into his place called heaven

A get out clause for everything

So basically God is a winner whichever way you look at it if you are a Christian . They simply will not accept analytical thought .

On a Sunday morning nicky Campbell, a Christian, presents the big question . Its all about religion basically and usually has someone from the Catholic, protestant , Anglican, Muslim, Jewish Hindu etc faith sitting down debating some nonsense and a scientist like Dawkins or his kind of enlightened sort trying to put em straight

It normally starts OK but within no time he will have them on the ropes and the tired old arguments and excuses will come out to justify their beliefs , none of them based on facts

The usual one is ........Jesus told us in the bible that ........some silly story about some such event which has no basis in fact

Or Mohammed told us this or did that ......again clearly complete fantasy


Whereas a scientist will prove to us that if we mix chemical a with chemical b it will produce chemical c which will be great for cleaning out drains but if you drink it , it will burn your throat out .........no maybe , no possibly .........a fact

The Jesus myth has been around for 2000 years

Its a fact and has been proved by carbon dating that dinosaurs 🦕 ruled the earth long before that. You would have thought they would have got a mention in the bible

But maybe that was God being a cheeky chappie again 🤔

[RonnieBird]

It’s entirely possible to believe we’re mortal and live a hopeful, meaningful life. Humanism, for example, centres around making the most of the one life we have. That’s not a philosophy of hopelessness - it’s positive, optimistic and brave.

That takes us to the conclusion that we might as well be the most sucessful predator we can during our brief period of consciousness.
If you start with this well meaning intent though, that's probably not a bad thing

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Perhaps you are coming to this from the wrong end, looking for a spiritual conclusion from physical data.
If there are many mistaken attempts at something ,does that mean that the thing itself is impossible or not worth further effort ?

I could give the example of manned flight for example. There were innumerable different attempts and complicated ideas about it over millennia which were all wrong , yet in the end a simple principle which had somehow been missed by all of them proved effective and enabled you to visit all these exotic locations.

It's quite possible to approach this subject from an intellectual starting point, but it's not for everyone and it's very complicated, so this is probably not the place to do it. Be that as it may, it does fly in the face of your suggestion that people simply accept the first thing they are told and believe it. Very very many highly intelligent people have unexpectedly and often reluctantly come to the incontravertable certainty of God by considering alternative possibilities.

I hope that you become one of them.

The vast majority of educated people such as scientists , doctors , biologists etc consider the facts and these people don't go to church or believe in God

Poor people , in poor countries such as Brazil seem to cling to religion with a desperate , blind faith

Of course there are educated people who follow the word of the Lord but the balance shifts generally as you move up the ladder

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

That takes us to the conclusion that we might as well be the most sucessful predator we can during our brief period of consciousness.
If you start with this well meaning intent though, that's probably not a bad thing

Humanism wins every time

If there is a god and you try to live a good life , he will let you in to heaven

If he doesn't then he's not really a very nice bloke and best avoided

[Croesy Blue]

That takes us to the conclusion that we might as well be the most sucessful predator we can during our brief period of consciousness.
If you start with this well meaning intent though, that's probably not a bad thing

Why? You don't think there is value in having morals unless there is a higher being who can punish you?

[Croesy Blue]

Humanism wins every time

If there is a god and you try to live a good life , he will let you in to heaven

If he doesn't then he's not really a very nice bloke and best avoided

and if there isn't you've lived a good life as a good person

[Gofer Blue]

[QUOTE=SLUDGE FACTORY;5169255]I
The Jesus myth has been around for 2000 years

/QUOTE]

This statement alone ensures that I will not be taking any further part in this debate! Sorry, Sludge.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Perhaps you are coming to this from the wrong end, looking for a spiritual conclusion from physical data.
If there are many mistaken attempts at something ,does that mean that the thing itself is impossible or not worth further effort ?

I could give the example of manned flight for example. There were innumerable different attempts and complicated ideas about it over millennia which were all wrong , yet in the end a simple principle which had somehow been missed by all of them proved effective and enabled you to visit all these exotic locations.

It's quite possible to approach this subject from an intellectual starting point, but it's not for everyone and it's very complicated, so this is probably not the place to do it. Be that as it may, it does fly in the face of your suggestion that people simply accept the first thing they are told and believe it. Very very many highly intelligent people have unexpectedly and often reluctantly come to the incontravertable certainty of God by considering alternative possibilities.

I hope that you become one of them.

The fact that most people, if they become believers at all (even if it's for a short time), tend to take on the first religion they are exposed to is patently obvious. That's why there are few Sikhs in Greenland and few (if any) Toaists in Venezuela etc.

Many people have, to use your words, an 'incontravertable certainty' of their particular deity but so what? Populism means nothing and anyone with such a certainty about their own particular deity/deities or idol/idols is outnumbered by those who have the same certainty about other deities and idols.

There could possibly be a creator of come description (probably chemical rather that an entity that mimics the qualities, sensitivities and appearance of a human being) but it's hardly likely that it will be a particular icon that was invented by man in a specific point in time, in a specific location and when the average Joe was exposed to most minimalist science. And as I have said before, many of the stories in so-called holy books came from earlier forms of religion (and why believers don't seem to take that on board is quite amusing).

Do me a favour and accept that I will not believe in any currently (or historically) worshipped deity or idol. In turn, I will continue not suggesting that you, personally, may be looking at the things the wrong way.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

[QUOTE=Gofer Blue;5169269]

I
The Jesus myth has been around for 2000 years

/QUOTE]

This statement alone ensures that I will not be taking any further part in this debate! Sorry, Sludge.

No problem

The bible , which is a series of writing sometimes hundreds of years after this Jesus bloke died on the cross , is give or take about 2000 years old now

Nothing that is written in the bible has proved to be a fact

But 2000 years after the death , or apparent death , of someone called Jesus, who its never been proven actually existed ...I think he was probably a hippy anarchist type bloke who was kind .........people still live their lives on this Bible

Considering we have been here a long long time as a species as has the planet and we have science , education and progress I think its worrying that people put their faith in a bloke who existed 2000 years ago . And that's just one bloke and his old man .

What about the person who invented the first vaccine against covid ? Shouldn't we be praising him or her ?

Or did God do that ?

Or the person who invented the processed , preserved food shipped to the starving in Africa, saving millions of lives

Or did God do that ?

If he's that powerful why didn't he stop the drought in the first place in Ethiopia that led to the famine in the first place ?

Christians have an excuse for everything and an answer for nothing

[Croesy Blue]

It's funny how scientology is openly mocked because it's a "made up" religion, other than being modern how is it any different from any of the others?

[lisvaneblue]

[QUOTE=SLUDGE FACTORY;5169289]

No problem

The bible , which is a series of writing sometimes hundreds of years after this Jesus bloke died on the cross , is give or take about 2000 years old now

Nothing that is written in the bible has proved to be a fact

But 2000 years after the death , or apparent death , of someone called Jesus, who its never been proven actually existed ...I think he was probably a hippy anarchist type bloke who was kind .........people still live their lives on this Bible

Considering we have been here a long long time as a species as has the planet and we have science , education and progress I think its worrying that people put their faith in a bloke who existed 2000 years ago . And that's just one bloke and his old man .

What about the person who invented the first vaccine against covid ? Shouldn't we be praising him or her ?

Or did God do that ?

Or the person who invented the processed , preserved food shipped to the starving in Africa, saving millions of lives

Or did God do that ?

If he's that powerful why didn't he stop the drought in the first place in Ethiopia that led to the famine in the first place ?

Christians have an excuse for everything and an answer for nothing

Interesting debate and your views and those of Heisenberg is proof indeed that humans have the free will that God graced us with. Your comments about Jesus surprise me as your birth is measured by the days and years since his birth. A person that was so insignificant, according to you, that the world counts time by him.

Whether you believe in God or not the immense order and interdependence of species on earth indicates that it came about by more that chance chaos.

Personally I believe that God created heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible. In his creation is the blueprint for everything. There are some certainties, ...'from ash we came and to ash we will return', and that applies to all life.

I have a good mate a very famous scientist. He was the first person to discover a drug to successfully treat what was, not so long ago, a disease that killed a lot of people. Did he discover something 'new' in the sense that it didn't exist before? No, it was there in God's blueprint and he found out how to use it to help mankind. You could say the same about science and Covid vaccines

I mention balance and interdependence in life and the comments you and others have made questioning why God did not get rid of Covid, or save ill children, or feed the hungry. It's hard to take but how can he? The answers are in our hands not his. Divine intervention might be the answer you want to hear but there will be consequences in changing the blueprint of nature We see it ourselves in what we do to this planet, be it climate change, or war, or insecticides killing bees and affecting plant pollination..we are screwing up the blueprint that keeps everything in balance.

And finally there is the assumption that God has it all his own way as long as it's good. Sounds a bit dramatic but there are good and evil forces in this world and they compete for supremacy. There are the same forces in every human being and we only need to look through a newspaper of history book to see for ourselves.
But, for sure God is there to support you if you ask him and he will never turn his back on you, even if you turn your back on him

[Baloo]

That takes us to the conclusion that we might as well be the most sucessful predator we can during our brief period of consciousness.
If you start with this well meaning intent though, that's probably not a bad thing

There's actually nothing wrong with trying to live a good life without doing so to ensure successful passage to an afterlife.

[pomeroy]

N[QUOTE=lisvaneblue;5169305]

Interesting debate and your views and those of Heisenberg is proof indeed that humans have the free will that God graced us with. Your comments about Jesus surprise me as your birth is measured by the days and years since his birth. A person that was so insignificant, according to you, that the world counts time by him.

Whether you believe in God or not the immense order and interdependence of species on earth indicates that it came about by more that chance chaos.

Personally I believe that God created heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible. In his creation is the blueprint for everything. There are some certainties, ...'from ash we came and to ash we will return', and that applies to all life.

I have a good mate a very famous scientist. He was the first person to discover a drug to successfully treat what was, not so long ago, a disease that killed a lot of people. Did he discover something 'new' in the sense that it didn't exist before? No, it was there in God's blueprint and he found out how to use it to help mankind. You could say the same about science and Covid vaccines

I mention balance and interdependence in life and the comments you and others have made questioning why God did not get rid of Covid, or save ill children, or feed the hungry. It's hard to take but how can he? The answers are in our hands not his. Divine intervention might be the answer you want to hear but there will be consequences in changing the blueprint of nature We see it ourselves in what we do to this planet, be it climate change, or war, or insecticides killing bees and affecting plant pollination..we are screwing up the blueprint that keeps everything in balance.

And finally there is the assumption that God has it all his own way as long as it's good. Sounds a bit dramatic but there are good and evil forces in this world and they compete for supremacy. There are the same forces in every human being and we only need to look through a newspaper of history book to see for ourselves.
But, for sure God is there to support you if you ask him and he will never turn his back on you, even if you turn your back on him

You make the mistake of referring to natural selection as chance chaos. It is not. Darwin’s great work has nothing to do with chance and subsequent discoveries ( Crick and Watson and DNA ) have proved conclusively that there is no longer a debate worth having between creationism and evolution. Membership of the Flat Earth Society has also been dwindling in recent times and the Catholic Church issued a grovelling apology some time ago to Galileo for suggesting the Earth went round the sun and not vice versa.
You also make the mistake of stating that we are endowed with free will. This is as big a delusion as belief in God. We are merely products of luck and decisions that we may make are determined by myriads of factors that impose upon us. Try telling the child born with an incurable congenital disease that it has free will.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the existence of God. Remember that where you are born will, in most cases, determine which God you follow be it Allah, Jehovah, Shiva, Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha and the thousands of Gods prevalent in all corners of the Earth. This is obviously not a matter of free will but engineered by man. It is all made up just like the lunatic conception of original sin and redemption.

[Croesy Blue]

And finally there is the assumption that God has it all his own way as long as it's good. Sounds a bit dramatic but there are good and evil forces in this world and they compete for supremacy. There are the same forces in every human being and we only need to look through a newspaper of history book to see for ourselves.
But, for sure God is there to support you if you ask him and he will never turn his back on you, even if you turn your back on him

I think you're confusing god with starwars.

I mention balance and interdependence in life and the comments you and others have made questioning why God did not get rid of Covid, or save ill children, or feed the hungry. It's hard to take but how can he? The answers are in our hands not his. Divine intervention might be the answer you want to hear but there will be consequences in changing the blueprint of nature We see it ourselves in what we do to this planet, be it climate change, or war, or insecticides killing bees and affecting plant pollination..we are screwing up the blueprint that keeps everything in balance.

Doesn't sound like the behaviour of an omnipotent god. Mad that his blueprints involves kids dying and being raped by priests.

[UNDERHILL1927]

A question I'd be interested in hearing an answer to is this, "if God created everything how did the devil get created then"? A fallen angel but surely if God created everything he would have made it perfectly?!

One of the many questions I've wanted to ask for years but logical questions were a no no in a strict religious household.

[RonnieBird]

[QUOTE=lisvaneblue;5169305]

Interesting debate and your views and those of Heisenberg is proof indeed that humans have the free will that God graced us with. Your comments about Jesus surprise me as your birth is measured by the days and years since his birth. A person that was so insignificant, according to you, that the world counts time by him.

Whether you believe in God or not the immense order and interdependence of species on earth indicates that it came about by more that chance chaos.

Personally I believe that God created heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible. In his creation is the blueprint for everything. There are some certainties, ...'from ash we came and to ash we will return', and that applies to all life.

I have a good mate a very famous scientist. He was the first person to discover a drug to successfully treat what was, not so long ago, a disease that killed a lot of people. Did he discover something 'new' in the sense that it didn't exist before? No, it was there in God's blueprint and he found out how to use it to help mankind. You could say the same about science and Covid vaccines

I mention balance and interdependence in life and the comments you and others have made questioning why God did not get rid of Covid, or save ill children, or feed the hungry. It's hard to take but how can he? The answers are in our hands not his. Divine intervention might be the answer you want to hear but there will be consequences in changing the blueprint of nature We see it ourselves in what we do to this planet, be it climate change, or war, or insecticides killing bees and affecting plant pollination..we are screwing up the blueprint that keeps everything in balance.

And finally there is the assumption that God has it all his own way as long as it's good. Sounds a bit dramatic but there are good and evil forces in this world and they compete for supremacy. There are the same forces in every human being and we only need to look through a newspaper of history book to see for ourselves.
But, for sure God is there to support you if you ask him and he will never turn his back on you, even if you turn your back on him

A wise and uplifting post in the face of determined denial.

[Croesy Blue]

Personally I believe that God created heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible.

So god did create lukemia for kids then?

Bit off like.

[goats]

My general view of religion/god stuff is if it makes you happy, you need it etc then crack on, enjoy. It’s only when they try and push their often bizarre views on people it bothers me....just leave it, enjoy it, but leave me out of it.

[UNDERHILL1927]

So god did create lukemia for kids then?

Bit off like.

I'll leave it to someone much more eloquent than me to explain my point of view.

https://youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo

[Taunton Blue Genie]

It's funny how scientology is openly mocked because it's a "made up" religion, other than being modern how is it any different from any of the others?

There is a saying that says something like if you experience a hallucination you are considered to be wacko but if you can convince enough other people that you saw it, it can become classified as a religion.

[pomeroy]

[QUOTE=RonnieBird;5169345]

A wise and uplifting post in the face of determined denial.

It is neither wise nor uplifting. There is not the slightest shred of evidence for the existence of a God.

[pomeroy]

My general view of religion/god stuff is if it makes you happy, you need it etc then crack on, enjoy. It’s only when they try and push their often bizarre views on people it bothers me....just leave it, enjoy it, but leave me out of it.

It is morally indefensible to believe in something that is manifestly untrue because it makes you feel good.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

[QUOTE=pomeroy;5169359]

It is neither wise nor uplifting. There is not the slightest shred of evidence for the existence of a God.

I believe in talking polka-dot cabbages riding three-headed manitees made of marshmallow. Try disproving their existence.
You can't - so perhaps you need to reconsider your attitude about such things, pomeroy.

[lisvaneblue]

[QUOTE=pomeroy;5169312]N

You make the mistake of referring to natural selection as chance chaos. It is not. Darwin’s great work has nothing to do with chance and subsequent discoveries ( Crick and Watson and DNA ) have proved conclusively that there is no longer a debate worth having between creationism and evolution. Membership of the Flat Earth Society has also been dwindling in recent times and the Catholic Church issued a grovelling apology some time ago to Galileo for suggesting the Earth went round the sun and not vice versa.
You also make the mistake of stating that we are endowed with free will. This is as big a delusion as belief in God. We are merely products of luck and decisions that we may make are determined by myriads of factors that impose upon us. Try telling the child born with an incurable congenital disease that it has free will.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever for the existence of God. Remember that where you are born will, in most cases, determine which God you follow be it Allah, Jehovah, Shiva, Jesus, Zoroaster, Buddha and the thousands of Gods prevalent in all corners of the Earth. This is obviously not a matter of free will but engineered by man. It is all made up just like the lunatic conception of original sin and redemption.

Crick did not prove conclusively in the way you say. Crick said that Darwin's work coupled with Gregor Mendel work indicated how life was created. Mendel was a Christian and an Abbott at a priory in , I think, Germany.

[goats]

It is morally indefensible to believe in something that is manifestly untrue because it makes you feel good.

They believe it’s all true though like a few in this thread