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Thread: Wales v England

  1. #51
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    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    There was one replay which showed that even before the ref blew his whistle for the game to restart England's players are already starting to spread out across the field, albeit sluggishly. A classic case of play the whistle!

    This is one of the issues I have with rugby - every stoppage takes an age and takes all the momentum out of the game. I'm actually beginning to dislike the game now because of this, combined with the myriad of petty rules, and only watch the Wales games anyway, more out of a sense of patriotism than anything else. Two examples:

    1. Line outs. A player kicks a long ball down field and it goes into touch. The rules allow an opposing player to take a quick throw in to another member of his team which gets the game underway immediately and also means that his side have guaranteed possession of the ball, unlike the normal lineout. How often do we see this? Very rarely.

    2. Tap penalties. This used to be a common move when a team is pressing the opposition back into their own 22 and gets the game going again. Hardly ever see it these days.

    If there are any rugby experts on here then I stand to be corrected!
    I don’t claim to be an expert but happy to offer a couple of observations

    If you watch the side that kicked it long the wing is always after it like shot to help prevent a quick throw in. There are fewer opportunities at professional level to take a quick throw in because of the way in which players are coached. The level of detail which the attack and defence coaches put into their respective roles is phenomenal.
    Defending ball recovery. Exit strategies from different parts of he pitch. Specific Defensive alignment in broken play and from set pieces.
    When a Wales player(s)make a tackle the first option is to attempt a turnover. If the ball is being cycled back to the opposition #9 defensive players disengage and sweep left or right depending on where the defence captain is reading that the next attacking play is coming.
    1 Forward will defend either side of the breakdown. Called the gatekeeper. Remaining forwards on their feet deploy in 2/3 man pods.

    When attacking Wales often line their forwards 1-1-2-2-2. One particular incident that highlighted this was in the first half when after the ball had passed through several pairs of hands Faletau received the ball in the outside centre position with only Tipuric outside him

    Tap penalties are always an option if players in the defence switch off for a moment as on Saturday when Daly turned his back and the Wales #9 saw the gap open up with no full back watching. Coaches will not be happy if you take a quick penalty, run into tacklers and lose the ball or give away a penalty for not releasing. Dwayne Peel used to be very quick with taking quick penalties

    I’ll tell you something you rarely or never see these days is a tap penalty where the ball is passed to an oncoming player for him to take the ball into contact. I guess it’s because there is a strong chance that possession will be lost.

    I think that refereeing standards vary widely even at international level so refs are very influential especially in closer games.

    The tackle/breakdown is poorly ref’d, badly coached and is an example of the shambles which turns off the less studious watcher.

  2. #52
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    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    Just a little rider to point 1. The quick throw can only be taken if no one else touches the ball between it entering touch and the player throwing it to a team mate. That means literally anyone, not just another player. It is why you see home team ball boys rushing to get the ball to 'help'. In reality he is stopping that quick throw.
    It's one of the reasons why you don't see it too often.
    Unless you’re Mike Phillips

    https://youtu.be/4YyXTwe6eSw

  3. #53

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    Just a little rider to point 1. The quick throw can only be taken if no one else touches the ball between it entering touch and the player throwing it to a team mate. That means literally anyone, not just another player. It is why you see home team ball boys rushing to get the ball to 'help'. In reality he is stopping that quick throw.
    It's one of the reasons why you don't see it too often.
    Thanks for that, so yet another petty rule that I was not aware of!

  4. #54

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by light up the darkness View Post
    I don’t claim to be an expert but happy to offer a couple of observations

    If you watch the side that kicked it long the wing is always after it like shot to help prevent a quick throw in. There are fewer opportunities at professional level to take a quick throw in because of the way in which players are coached. The level of detail which the attack and defence coaches put into their respective roles is phenomenal.
    Defending ball recovery. Exit strategies from different parts of he pitch. Specific Defensive alignment in broken play and from set pieces.
    When a Wales player(s)make a tackle the first option is to attempt a turnover. If the ball is being cycled back to the opposition #9 defensive players disengage and sweep left or right depending on where the defence captain is reading that the next attacking play is coming.
    1 Forward will defend either side of the breakdown. Called the gatekeeper. Remaining forwards on their feet deploy in 2/3 man pods.

    When attacking Wales often line their forwards 1-1-2-2-2. One particular incident that highlighted this was in the first half when after the ball had passed through several pairs of hands Faletau received the ball in the outside centre position with only Tipuric outside him

    Tap penalties are always an option if players in the defence switch off for a moment as on Saturday when Daly turned his back and the Wales #9 saw the gap open up with no full back watching. Coaches will not be happy if you take a quick penalty, run into tacklers and lose the ball or give away a penalty for not releasing. Dwayne Peel used to be very quick with taking quick penalties

    I’ll tell you something you rarely or never see these days is a tap penalty where the ball is passed to an oncoming player for him to take the ball into contact. I guess it’s because there is a strong chance that possession will be lost.

    I think that refereeing standards vary widely even at international level so refs are very influential especially in closer games.

    The tackle/breakdown is poorly ref’d, badly coached and is an example of the shambles which turns off the less studious watcher.
    Thanks for your comments. Yes, as one of the less studious/knowledgeable watchers I agree, a definite turn off.

  5. #55

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Thanks for that, so yet another petty rule that I was not aware of!
    The complicated nature of the rules in rugby leaves things wide open to interpretation and I agree with later posts that it is this that contributes largely to the game being a turn off.

    In the days of boot money where the game was far more open and off the cuff, it was a spectacle. I'd often go and watch Cardiff play on bank holidays etc and when there was City game. It wouldn't enter my mind nowadays.

    It can still be enjoyable if you get two sides who are willing to throw the ball about but again, with the money on offer these days this is rarely likely to occur.
    Its all about power.

    My worry is that football, historically a very simple game in comparison with few rules, is going the same way and becoming a bit of a turn off, especially with the inconsistencies regarding VAR.

  6. #56

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by Kind of Blue View Post
    I have some sympathy with the one controversial incident, if you want to call it that, when the ref told Farrell to have a word with his players. But what’s wrong with the try where Zammit drops the ball that then comes off his leg that then gets picked up for a try. He mishandled but can it be a knock on if it has come off his leg, with the ball then going backwards anyway?

    I’m a casual viewer and liked the game when I was younger and have a broadly decent hang of the rules, as they were then, although age obviously takes its toll of course!
    It's 100% a knock on. First movement of the ball went forward and he never regained control of it.

  7. #57

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman View Post
    It's 100% a knock on. First movement of the ball went forward and he never regained control of it.
    Thats what I thought, Zammit himself too, but the rulebook apparently says it wasnt (a knock on that is)
    Last edited by MacAdder; 01-03-21 at 15:11. Reason: Clarification of statement

  8. #58

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by MacAdder View Post
    Thats what I thought, Zammit himself too, but the rulebook apparently says it wasnt (a knock on that is)
    In the Pro 14 a few weeks back a player juggled the ball forward with his first touch and in attempting to regather it knocked it backwards over his head and onto the floor.

    It was given as a knock on.

    Nigel Owens was on Scrum V last night clarifying the rule and he said it was a knock on as per the laws.

  9. #59

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman View Post
    In the Pro 14 a few weeks back a player juggled the ball forward with his first touch and in attempting to regather it knocked it backwards over his head and onto the floor.

    It was given as a knock on.

    Nigel Owens was on Scrum V last night clarifying the rule and he said it was a knock on as per the laws.
    Crazy they even spent 5 minutes looking at the TMO, who must be the same idiot running the VAR at the Chelsea MU game yesterday!

    No wonder they're all seething on t'other side of bridge

  10. #60

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by MacAdder View Post
    Crazy they even spent 5 minutes looking at the TMO, who must be the same idiot running the VAR at the Chelsea MU game yesterday!

    No wonder they're all seething on t'other side of bridge
    He's apologised today and said he got them both wrong.

    The TMO doesn't help on the knock on though. What was he looking at?

  11. #61

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman View Post
    He's apologised today and said he got them both wrong.

    The TMO doesn't help on the knock on though. What was he looking at?
    Why did he get the first one wrong? "The water carrier...." shouldn't have been on the pitch if the only reason the game had stopped was to give one side the chance to avoid further punishment. Isn't it a similar effect to footballer going down with "cramp" to give their side chance to talk tactics and refresh? I don't think enough time was given and communication could have been improved but how much do teams talk in that scenario and how much extra should they be allowed to say? Something to decide going forward rather than out-of-the-blue on the day.

    I'm sure the England camp isn't just discussing those two moments though given their ambitions.

  12. #62
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    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman View Post
    He's apologised today and said he got them both wrong.

    The TMO doesn't help on the knock on though. What was he looking at?
    Gauzere not only consulted at length with the TMO - and both watched the 'knock on' incident in slow motion several times - he also checked with his two Irish assistant referees who had also been watching the big screen, and both agreed with his call.

    After thousands of pages of reportage, analysis and comment on the two controversial tries, there is still no definitive outcome.

    The referee has subsequently agreed that he didn't give England quite enough time to set themselves for the Adams try (they did on one side of the pitch but not the side that mattered) - so fine margins and maybe he called time back on a couple of seconds too soon - and whilst agreeing on further slow motion viewings (per the reported phone call with Joel Jutge) that LRZ did knock the ball forward and didn't have control the main confession was that he should have made an on-field decision himself and not consulted the TMO!

    Still, it gives England supporters all they need to claim they were robbed, and to ignore all the other bad refereeing decisions that affected other teams in the competition. If the Adams try hadn't been given Wales would almost certainly have kicked a 3 point penalty. If Maro Itoje had been yellow carded as he should have been, the normal rule of thumb is that a 10 minute sin-binning will cost his side 7 points. So Wales gained 4 points from dubious first half refereeing decisions. OK - a win by 12 points not 16!

  13. #63

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Gauzere not only consulted at length with the TMO - and both watched the 'knock on' incident in slow motion several times - he also checked with his two Irish assistant referees who had also been watching the big screen, and both agreed with his call.

    After thousands of pages of reportage, analysis and comment on the two controversial tries, there is still no definitive outcome.

    The referee has subsequently agreed that he didn't give England quite enough time to set themselves for the Adams try (they did on one side of the pitch but not the side that mattered) - so fine margins and maybe he called time back on a couple of seconds too soon - and whilst agreeing on further slow motion viewings (per the reported phone call with Joel Jutge) that LRZ did knock the ball forward and didn't have control the main confession was that he should have made an on-field decision himself and not consulted the TMO!

    Still, it gives England supporters all they need to claim they were robbed, and to ignore all the other bad refereeing decisions that affected other teams in the competition. If the Adams try hadn't been given Wales would almost certainly have kicked a 3 point penalty. If Maro Itoje had been yellow carded as he should have been, the normal rule of thumb is that a 10 minute sin-binning will cost his side 7 points. So Wales gained 4 points from dubious first half refereeing decisions. OK - a win by 12 points not 16!
    Agreed.... worth adding that if the kick to the corner for Adams hadn’t been perfect and had been caught by the England defender who then went the length of the pitch to score, then no one would be clamoring that it was taken too quickly and that Wales should have the ball back for a penalty in front of the posts. Biggar gambled for a try and played it superbly

  14. #64

    Re: Wales v England

    wow... there are probably about 15 dodgy pens given every week in football and the general reaction is that the ref's a whanker.
    In rugby it makes the national press and needs to be dissected. Odd

  15. #65

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by ToTaL ITK View Post
    wow... there are probably about 15 dodgy pens given every week in football and the general reaction is that the ref's a whanker.
    In rugby it makes the national press and needs to be dissected. Odd
    Did you see what happened when Frank Lampards goal against Germany was ruled out?

    They introduced VAR.

  16. #66

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Gauzere not only consulted at length with the TMO - and both watched the 'knock on' incident in slow motion several times - he also checked with his two Irish assistant referees who had also been watching the big screen, and both agreed with his call.

    After thousands of pages of reportage, analysis and comment on the two controversial tries, there is still no definitive outcome.

    The referee has subsequently agreed that he didn't give England quite enough time to set themselves for the Adams try (they did on one side of the pitch but not the side that mattered) - so fine margins and maybe he called time back on a couple of seconds too soon - and whilst agreeing on further slow motion viewings (per the reported phone call with Joel Jutge) that LRZ did knock the ball forward and didn't have control the main confession was that he should have made an on-field decision himself and not consulted the TMO!

    Still, it gives England supporters all they need to claim they were robbed, and to ignore all the other bad refereeing decisions that affected other teams in the competition. If the Adams try hadn't been given Wales would almost certainly have kicked a 3 point penalty. If Maro Itoje had been yellow carded as he should have been, the normal rule of thumb is that a 10 minute sin-binning will cost his side 7 points. So Wales gained 4 points from dubious first half refereeing decisions. OK - a win by 12 points not 16!
    I can't see any reason that it wasn't a knock on.

  17. #67
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman View Post
    I can't see any reason that it wasn't a knock on.
    I also think it was a knock on - but all four officials at the match felt it had been knocked backwards onto the English player.

    Two days later after a media storm the referee (allegedly) accepts he got that wrong.

    The incident also highlights a few ambiguities in the law book (especially about control of the ball), and the fact that most pundits and fans are experts on custom and practice, but ignorant of what the laws actually say. Jeremy Guscott summarised it well.

    If it was totally clear cut there wouldn't be tens of thousands of wannabe referees still arguing the toss on social media! But yes, Wales had some luck with the calls.

  18. #68

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Paget Flashman View Post
    Did you see what happened when Frank Lampards goal against Germany was ruled out?

    They introduced VAR.
    And on this forum there is bi weekly moaning about VAR. Accept the decisions they will even out in the end.Tired of England
    moaning about stop the steal

  19. #69

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Gauzere not only consulted at length with the TMO - and both watched the 'knock on' incident in slow motion several times - he also checked with his two Irish assistant referees who had also been watching the big screen, and both agreed with his call.

    After thousands of pages of reportage, analysis and comment on the two controversial tries, there is still no definitive outcome.

    The referee has subsequently agreed that he didn't give England quite enough time to set themselves for the Adams try (they did on one side of the pitch but not the side that mattered) - so fine margins and maybe he called time back on a couple of seconds too soon - and whilst agreeing on further slow motion viewings (per the reported phone call with Joel Jutge) that LRZ did knock the ball forward and didn't have control the main confession was that he should have made an on-field decision himself and not consulted the TMO!

    Still, it gives England supporters all they need to claim they were robbed, and to ignore all the other bad refereeing decisions that affected other teams in the competition. If the Adams try hadn't been given Wales would almost certainly have kicked a 3 point penalty. If Maro Itoje had been yellow carded as he should have been, the normal rule of thumb is that a 10 minute sin-binning will cost his side 7 points. So Wales gained 4 points from dubious first half refereeing decisions. OK - a win by 12 points not 16!
    Glad you mentioned that England were set up as they needed to be to their left for the first try before the ref said the clock should go back on - as Farrell delivered his talk to the team under the posts, his team were equi distant from each touchline, yet they left the side where any cross kick was going to go wide open.

    Nigel Owens said on Scrum Five last night that the second try should not have been allowed because Rees-Zamitt never had the ball under control after it had gone forward, if he had been able to do that then the try would have been a legitimate one.

    Having been caught out by the first try, England were then caught napping with the third one with their full back of all people turning his back on the play. England played as if they didn’t have a brain in their head either individually or collectively - the fuss regarding the refereeing is a diversionary tactic to try and make them look less stupid.

  20. #70

    Re: Wales v England

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    I also think it was a knock on - but all four officials at the match felt it had been knocked backwards onto the English player.

    Two days later after a media storm the referee (allegedly) accepts he got that wrong.

    The incident also highlights a few ambiguities in the law book (especially about control of the ball), and the fact that most pundits and fans are experts on custom and practice, but ignorant of what the laws actually say. Jeremy Guscott summarised it well.

    If it was totally clear cut there wouldn't be tens of thousands of wannabe referees still arguing the toss on social media! But yes, Wales had some luck with the calls.
    Martin Johnson was the perfect example of this on the weekend when he said "by the letter of the law its not a knock on, but 98 times out of 100 its given"

    Did Wales get some luck? Certainly, but like you said Itoje should have been carded & wasn't. The fact of the matter is it was even going into the last 20 minutes and Wales won it with ease, you can't give away the number of penalties England did and expect to win the game.

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