The Budget

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

1% sounds like bugger all, and for a newly qualified nurse on £25K it's just a fiver a week. For a consultant it's £20 a week or more. Trouble with NHS is that it does not have performance related pay.

You are right Sludge some in the NHS have put their lives on the line but others haven't. I know of senior doctors with little to do because their specialities have stopped clinics, operations etc. Do they deserve a pay rise or should more be given to those on the Covid front line?

And how about the 10-20% of patients who caught Covid whilst in hospital? Some people in the NHS are responsible for these cross infections as the cause is poor infection control. Do they deserve a pay rise?

In England, (and currently it's England that's offered the 1%,) 385,000 Covid patients been in hospital in the year since the pandemic started. Approx 57,000 caught it whilst in hospital for something else.

I know there have been peaks and troughs in numbers but averaging them out there have been roughly 32,000 people a month in hospital with Covid. NHS England has 1.2m staff. If they all looked after Covid patients that would be 38 staff just looking after one patient.

As we know it's not like that at all. So like you I feel the front line Covid facing NHS staff deserve a fair rise. As for the rest, they are much more fortunate than many to have a job in the current climate

I am not going to argue with that

[jon1959]

Why do we need to replace public sector jobs with private sector jobs?

[Feedback]

Why do we need to replace public sector jobs with private sector jobs?

I'll assume you read my post but failed to take on board that in the UK 1 in every 5 workers is a public sector worker, but in Wales this is 1 in 4. So we have 75k more public sector jobs than the UK average. If we do not collect more in taxes to pay for them, then either we lose those jobs or they are replaced by the private sector.

[jon1959]

I'll assume you read my post but failed to take on board that in the UK 1 in every 5 workers is a public sector worker, but in Wales this is 1 in 4. So we have 75k more public sector jobs than the UK average. If we do not collect more in taxes to pay for them, then either we lose those jobs or they are replaced by the private sector.

Yes I read your post and it took me back to many wasted hours arguing the toss with you years back.

You have an entrenched 'ideological' view of public and private sector jobs that is often unrelated to reality.

Basically you seem to think that: private sector = good = productive = tax generating; whilst public sector = bad = unproductive = tax consuming.

Years back I asked you how this applied to a Council plumber or a hospital cleaner who one day are tax paying, public sector, productive workers (one funded by local tenant rents and the other by general taxation) and the next day are TUPE transferred to a private sector contractor. They are still productive, tax paying workers doing essential jobs. They are both funded by tenant rents or general taxation (via a contract fee to the private sector company). The only difference is that (generally) their pay and conditions will be worse - if not immediately then after a few years - and any surplus in revenues will go to private sector shareholders and not into improved service.

So the answer is no - we don't need to replace public sector jobs with private sector jobs. It would be better if insecure private sector jobs were transferred (back) into the public sector.

[Tuerto]

Yes I read your post and it took me back to many wasted hours arguing the toss with you years back.

You have an entrenched 'ideological' view of public and private sector jobs that is often unrelated to reality.

Basically you seem to think that: private sector = good = productive = tax generating; whilst public sector = bad = unproductive = tax consuming.

Years back I asked you how this applied to a Council plumber or a hospital cleaner who one day are tax paying, public sector, productive workers (one funded by local tenant rents and the other by general taxation) and the next day are TUPE transferred to a private sector contractor. They are still productive, tax paying workers doing essential jobs. They are both funded by tenant rents or general taxation (via a contract fee to the private sector company). The only difference is that (generally) their pay and conditions will be worse - if not immediately then after a few years - and any surplus in revenues will go to private sector shareholders and not into improved service.

So the answer is no - we don't need to replace public sector jobs with private sector jobs. It would be better if insecure private sector jobs were transferred (back) into the public sector.

Maybe he thinks that we should all become sole traders and turn over 80 grand a year, no working rights, pension, holiday pay, sick pay etc I did it for 23 years, and i can honestly say that prices didn't really ever increase hugely, because the people paying you are on an income based on inflation and crappy pay rises. The notion of 'supply and demand' is bullshit when you're a worker, you can earn more money when it's busy, because you end up working more hours. It's that simple. I'm a plasterer, the price of putting up a ceiling and skimming it didn't double when the economy boomed. The only way i would have earned more money is if i ripped off other trades people and paid them shit money.

[Feedback]

Maybe he thinks that we should all become sole traders and turn over 80 grand a year, no working rights, pension, holiday pay, sick pay etc I did it for 23 years, and i can honestly say that prices didn't really ever increase hugely, because the people paying you are on an income based on inflation and crappy pay rises. The notion of 'supply and demand' is bullshit when you're a worker, you can earn more money when it's busy, because you end up working more hours. It's that simple. I'm a plasterer, the price of putting up a ceiling and skimming it didn't double when the economy boomed. The only way i would have earned more money is if i ripped off other trades people and paid them shit money.

if we don't have the taxes to pay for the 75k public sector jobs, who is going to pay for them?

and i don't think we can all be self-employed, just to be clear.

[Feedback]

Yes I read your post and it took me back to many wasted hours arguing the toss with you years back.

You have an entrenched 'ideological' view of public and private sector jobs that is often unrelated to reality.

Basically you seem to think that: private sector = good = productive = tax generating; whilst public sector = bad = unproductive = tax consuming.

I've not indicated that at all in any of my post. What I did say was that if we don't have the tax base to pay for the 75k jobs, then the private sector will have to pick up the slack. No mention of whether the private/public sector was productive or not. You're creating a straw man.

Years back I asked you how this applied to a Council plumber or a hospital cleaner who one day are tax paying, public sector, productive workers (one funded by local tenant rents and the other by general taxation) and the next day are TUPE transferred to a private sector contractor. They are still productive, tax paying workers doing essential jobs. They are both funded by tenant rents or general taxation (via a contract fee to the private sector company). The only difference is that (generally) their pay and conditions will be worse - if not immediately then after a few years - and any surplus in revenues will go to private sector shareholders and not into improved service.

you say I'm dogmatic then immediately claim that pay will be worse in the private sector. There is no evidence of that whatsoever.

So the answer is no - we don't need to replace public sector jobs with private sector jobs. It would be better if insecure private sector jobs were transferred (back) into the public sector.

more dogma. there is no evidence that the public sector or private sector can deliver all services that are required. The public sector will be more geared in certain situations, whereas the private sector will be in others.

what you cannot grasp is that my point is not about transferring jobs from public to private, is the fact that without the tax base to pay for it, we are going to lose 75k public sector jobs. If the private sector does not pick up the slack, then 75k workers - 5% of the workforce - will be unemployed.

[jon1959]

I've not indicated that at all in any of my post. What I did say was that if we don't have the tax base to pay for the 75k jobs, then the private sector will have to pick up the slack. No mention of whether the private/public sector was productive or not. You're creating a straw man.

I was referring to your long history of rubbishing the public sector and lauding the private sector - usually based on myths and false logic.


you say I'm dogmatic then immediately claim that pay will be worse in the private sector. There is no evidence of that whatsoever.

You could try googling pay and terms of condition of health service staff transferred from direct NHS employment to Compass or Mitie or any of the other private sector contractors who have hoovered up NHS contracts in the past 25 years - the evidence of reduced pay and poorer conditions is overwhelming. Maybe that doesn't apply to accountants and other such key workers?

more dogma. there is no evidence that the public sector or private sector can deliver all services that are required. The public sector will be more geared in certain situations, whereas the private sector will be in others.

More dogma

what you cannot grasp is that my point is not about transferring jobs from public to private, is the fact that without the tax base to pay for it, we are going to lose 75k public sector jobs. If the private sector does not pick up the slack, then 75k workers - 5% of the workforce - will be unemployed.

Clearly I haven't grasped your point. Whatever it is. Seems the main issue is keeping the tax revenues up? But you seem to be saying that is jobs go in the public sector because the government has failed to protect the tax base then 'other' jobs in the private sector will be the only way former public sector workers will get jobs? That may be true - a lot of technicians, architects and even brickies lost their Council jobs in the 1980s and ended up flipping burgers or similar - but I wouldn't put that forward as a satisfactory solution to government mismanagement of the economy!

[Hilts]

TOBW is left wing and will always vote left wing. He's not as open minded as his criticism suggests. anyone who says they could never vote for one particular party really isn't in any position to criticise anyone else.

So you wouldn't rule out voting for say the BNP.?

[Feedback]

So you wouldn't rule out voting for say the BNP.?

parties ebb and flow in their policies. if the BNP revisited their policies regarding bigotry and hatred, and became more mainstream, then I'd consider voting for them based on their manifesto. But just to be clear, their current outlook doesn't resonate with me.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Oh so I am just one of those donkeys am I?

Actually I am a bit annoyed about that. I have made it plain that I have given some thought to this and will when the time comes an and election is called will think about it again, so I am definitely NOT one of those people you mention because the point about them is that they give NO THOUGHT WHATSOEVER when they cast their vote.

I will respond more fully when I have more time and have calmed down a bit

I am absolutely amazed that given the situation with PIP that directly affects you and the crime of social care you would ever consider voting anything other than Liberal, Labour or one of the other parties .

I am staggered that decent people with intelligence such as yourself vote and prop up a party who directly through their policies are kicking you up the arse .

I find it bewildering . There is a shocking lack of opposition to the conservatives but continuing to vote for them isn't going to do anything for you in your position . In fact its going to make things far worse .

[Hilts]

parties ebb and flow in their policies. if the BNP revisited their policies regarding bigotry and hatred, and became more mainstream, then I'd consider voting for them based on their manifesto. But just to be clear, their current outlook doesn't resonate with me.

Fair enough . I know id never vote BNP myself.

[Feedback]

Fair enough . I know id never vote BNP myself.

So if the BNP discarded it's 1970s NF policies and suddenly adopted social democracy at its core you would still say no?

[the other bob wilson]

So if the BNP discarded it's 1970s NF policies and suddenly adopted social democracy at its core you would still say no?

You're just being deliberatively argumentative now. I agree with you that nearly all political parties have ebbs and flows, but you're talking about a tsunami there!

[Feedback]

You're just being deliberatively argumentative now. I agree with you that nearly all political parties have ebbs and flows, but you're talking about a tsunami there!

agreed, I've used an extreme case to make the point.

[life on mars]

£407 billion and counting, shall we crowd fund the country back to health.

[Feedback]

£407 billion and counting, shall we crowd fund the country back to health.

we have a shit storm coming between June and September when furlough ends. What would you have done differently if you were Chancellor?

[Optimistic Nick]

if you're going to quote Ireland and its GDP, then be honest about it and explain that a significant portion of it is a result of the double Irish, meaning whilst the economic activity of the likes of Facebook, Google etc is nominally part of the Irish GDP, its hardly taxed in Ireland and it doesn't transpose to wealth for Ireland.

Irish tax policy is a disgrace. Has been for years, it's basically designed to base erode other economies. Agree that the corporate tax take is miniscule in Ireland for those companies but it does create good jobs there. Luxembourg too. And the Netherlands, Belgium. At least the channel Islands have the decency to be up front about haven status and don't hide behind a high headline rate.

[Feedback]

Irish tax policy is a disgrace. Has been for years, it's basically designed to base erode other economies. Agree that the corporate tax take is miniscule in Ireland for those companies but it does create good jobs there. Luxembourg too. And the Netherlands, Belgium. At least the channel Islands have the decency to be up front about haven status and don't hide behind a high headline rate.

It is a disgrace and whats bizarre is there are many left wing Welsh nationalists who laud the Republic of Ireland as an example to follow when looking towards independence.

By the way, Facebook, Google and Amazon employ less than 10k between them in RoI, albeit with higher than average pay. Whilst they contribute to GDP, it doesn't really add much wealth to the Irish economy overall in real terms.