Scottish Independence

[Eric Cartman]

Getting independence carries no guarantees of success in Europe, neither is the collapse of the union , we could see a lot more wealth creation in England and Westminster if it didn'thave to fund Scotland, an interesting fact is 40 percent (£32billion) of state spending in Scotland is provided via Westminster, of which £25billion goes on pensions and social security.

They would have a huge shortfall some say 25 billion as they have big social spending commitments, if they ran independently and could only survive by hiking its taxes or reduce its social spending .

The emotion of independence versus the effect to Scotland , Wales and Northern Ireland is something to that needs very careful consideration ,some may hate Westminster but there's a saying better the devil you know

Project fear

[Moodybluebird]

Sorry, not trying to judge you on the strength of one post. It just seems strange to use her appearance as a negative.
This seems to happen a lot more with women and must dissuade some talented people from entering politics which is a shame.

Politics is a tough old game and not for the thin-skinned or faint hearted. As early as the 17th and 18th century political satirists have been plying their trade and many politicians (almost always men) have been mercilessly lampooned since those early days.

Anyone who gets into politics know both what they say and their physical appearance will come under the closest scrutiny and they have to be prepared for it. This applies to both men and women. And the more successful they are the more flak they are likely to take, especially from people who do not agree will their political views. And nobody would argue that Nicola Sturgeon is a very successful politician.

[Croesy Blue]

Project fear

To quote certain brexiteers on here how can we say it’s going to be bad for the economy before anything has even happened.

[Croesy Blue]

Politics is a tough old game and not for the thin-skinned or faint hearted. As early as the 17th and 18th century political satirists have been plying their trade and many politicians (almost always men) have been mercilessly lampooned since those early days.

Anyone who gets into politics know both what they say and their physical appearance will come under the closest scrutiny and they have to be prepared for it. This applies to both men and women. And the more successful they are the more flak they are likely to take, especially from people who do not agree will their political views. And nobody would argue that Nicola Sturgeon is a very successful politician.

I think this is missing the point tbh. It does happen with a female politician’s appearance much more than with men.

It’s quite often when Nicola Surgeon is brought up on here her appearance gets mentioned in a negative way. Doesn’t seem to happen half as much with male politicians.

[Moodybluebird]

I think this is missing the point tbh. It does happen with a female politician’s appearance much more than with men.

It’s quite often when Nicola Surgeon is brought up on here her appearance gets mentioned in a negative way. Doesn’t seem to happen half as much with male politicians.

I'm most certainly not missing the point !

You only have to go back to the original Spitting Image series to see how cruel the creators/satirists were to predominantly male politicians. Roy Hattersley spitting, Michael Heseltine with his wild hair, a little David Steele in the pocket of David Owen, an unflattering Neil Kinnock puppet etc etc.

Other than Sturgeon, I can't think of another female politician who gets mocked purely on their appearance.

[Rjk]

I think this is missing the point tbh. It does happen with a female politician’s appearance much more than with men.

It’s quite often when Nicola Surgeon is brought up on here her appearance gets mentioned in a negative way. Doesn’t seem to happen half as much with male politicians.

not just politicians, women are routinely judged for their appearance, where a man isn't.

I have noticed some small changes though - over the past few years on this board of there is a thread on a female sportsperson it is now probably about their sporting (or commentating) prowess, whereas only few years ago it would have been dominated by how attractive they were.


Even in the industry I work in, the men are the scruffiest bunch of kents you can imagine, whereas if a woman started to come to work as scruffily I think it would certainly alter people's perception of them.

A good example is GMTV (is it still called that?) 2 main presenters Piers Morgan (before he stropped off) and Susannah Reid - both good at what they do. Both trained journalists, yet the male looks like a ham that has been beat into a vaguely human shape with a trowel, and the female is genuinely beautiful. If Susannah Reid had Piers Morgan's face we would never have heard of her.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Imagine Nicola Sturgeon having an affair, during which her lover received a large amount of taxpayers' money. The media would maintain a discreet silence about that, wouldn't they?

[surge]

Repeatedly of late, we’ve seen cases where at the very least the perception exists that there are inadequate investigative and enforcement mechanisms around standards in public life and holding politicians to account.

What mechanisms do exist have in some cases been diminished. So for example, the Prime Minister’s independent adviser on the ministerial standards Sir Alex Allen resigns, after the PM chose to ignore his finding that the Home Sec in beach of the code- and he has not been replaced

As I’ve pointed out many times, it’s the Prime Minister’s job to adjudicate the code. He’s judge, jury and executioner (especially in the absence of an independent adviser on ministerial standards). Given it’s his government, the potential conflict of interest is clear.

NB The Cameron case is not purely a question of the ministerial code as it relates to activity after he left office (though obviously some of it is about access he granted while he was prime minister). But again, clear extra-Whitehall enforcement mechanisms aren’t there.

https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/st...83721127788549

Not going to suggest it's a problem limited to Westminster but this aint an example of a strong democracy.

[Feedback]

The Orkneys and Shetlands have said that if Scotland declares independence they will declare independence from Scotland and enter into some form of a union with the UK. So the oil stays with the UK.

[Rjk]

The Orkneys and Shetlands have said that if Scotland declares independence they will declare independence from Scotland and enter into some form of a union with the UK. So the oil stays with the UK.

they have also said in the past that they would leave Scotland AND the UK. in reality it is just sabre rattling. I can't see them actually leaving Scotland

[Taunton Blue Genie]

The Orkneys and Shetlands have said that if Scotland declares independence they will declare independence from Scotland and enter into some form of a union with the UK. So the oil stays with the UK.

Declaring independence is one thing but achieving it and it being internationally recognised is something else. I have often thought about declaring my postage stamp of a property on Taunton as an independent nation but in the meantime I will enjoy my long-standing Lordship of Sealand.

[William Treseder]

Imagine Nicola Sturgeon having an affair, during which her lover received a large amount of taxpayers' money. The media would maintain a discreet silence about that, wouldn't they?

That takes some imagining !

[lardy]

That takes some imagining !

Boris is hardly a Hollywood hunk himself.

[Vindec]

The Scots are already receiving a disproportionate amount of money due to the Barnet formula and excessive COVID amounts being diverted to fund other things so if they had independence that would mean more for the rest of us. Of course it's not all about money but the anti UK Scots might well regret leaving the UK if it ever happens.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ngland-thanks/

[Rjk]

The Scots are already receiving a disproportionate amount of money due to the Barnet formula and excessive COVID amounts being diverted to fund other things so if they had independence that would mean more for the rest of us. Of course it's not all about money but the anti UK Scots might well regret leaving the UK if it ever happens.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...ngland-thanks/

Ireland in the 1920s were in a far worse economic position compared with the rest of the UK and they have flourished a lot more than if they were still i the union, I don't think anyone in the republic regrets leaving.

[lardy]

Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?

[WJ99mobile]

Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?

The UK done it in a similar way through Brexit?

[not telling]

So a contribution from someone who would have a vote...

Brexit has been a gamechanger. We are told that the only way to stay in the EU was to say no to independence. Well that worked out well, didn't it. We feel shafted.
What is also changes, to a degree, the economic argument. If Scotland were in the EU as an independent country, we would be the natural home for Financial Services and Logistics companies that are based in England but need an EU base - English speaking, good schools, same time zone - it's a no brainer. I expect that we would still lose out financially, but this narrows the gap.
What has also changed is the perception of England - right wing and narrow minded, whereas Scotland sees itself as Social Democrat and open to the world. We are on different paths, and this has become increasingly apparent since the last independence referendum.
And finally, you cannot begin to imagine just how much Boris Johnson is loathed up here.

[WJ99mobile]

not just politicians, women are routinely judged for their appearance, where a man isn't.

I have noticed some small changes though - over the past few years on this board of there is a thread on a female sportsperson it is now probably about their sporting (or commentating) prowess, whereas only few years ago it would have been dominated by how attractive they were.


Even in the industry I work in, the men are the scruffiest bunch of kents you can imagine, whereas if a woman started to come to work as scruffily I think it would certainly alter people's perception of them.

A good example is GMTV (is it still called that?) 2 main presenters Piers Morgan (before he stropped off) and Susannah Reid - both good at what they do. Both trained journalists, yet the male looks like a ham that has been beat into a vaguely human shape with a trowel, and the female is genuinely beautiful. If Susannah Reid had Piers Morgan's face we would never have heard of her.

That's just as much as a female issue as a male one.

Women judge women so much

[lardy]

The UK done it in a similar way through Brexit?

Brexit is nothing like a country becoming independent.

[Rjk]

That's just as much as a female issue as a male one.

Women judge women so much

Oh absolutely, because they're also brought up in a society where they are taught women are valued for their appearance. It starts at a very young age . I think things are slowly changing though, and the younger generatons seem t have a much better awareness of it

[Rjk]

Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?

I guess Texas was independent for a short while.

and you could say that the holy Roman empire collapsed into many small states, which eventually some of remerged into Germany but it's not a very good example.

[Croesy Blue]

The UK done it in a similar way through Brexit?

You do you think there is a similarity between the two?

[lardy]

I guess Texas was independent for a short while.

and you could say that the holy Roman empire collapsed into many small states, which eventually some of remerged into Germany but it's not a very good example.

Texas is a nice shout, although I think it left Mexico and eventually joined the US. Really though, it's not easy to find examples of nations that regret independence, even if it's very difficult and daunting.

Anguilla may be one example, as it fought to become an overseas territory of Britain after independence. Would need to read more about it though, as it seems that independence was forced upon them and not sought.

[Rjk]

Texas is a nice shout, although I think it left Mexico and eventually joined the US. Really though, it's not easy to find examples of nations that regret independence, even if it's very difficult and daunting.

Anguilla may be one example, as it fought to become an overseas territory of Britain after independence. Would need to read more about it though, as it seems that independence was forced upon them and not sought.

there doesn't seem to be a really clean cut example. perhaps when an independent Scotland rejoins the EU?