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Thread: Scottish Independence

  1. #1
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    Scottish Independence

    I have mulling over this and all it's implications for a while now. I don't pretend to have answers but wonder what other board members feel about certain aspects of it.

    First of all who should vote? Should it be people from any nationality who reside in Scotland or only Scots? Should Scottish people living outside the country be entitled to vote as it is their homeland?
    Or as it affects everyone in the UK should all UK citizens be allowed to vote? (Personally I think if this were the case they would probably be gone tomorrow, although it isn't my preferred option)

    But assuming the vote is for separation what do we think will be the outcome of certain problems.
    1. Armed forces: Should they be given certain part of the Army Navy and RAF or should they raise their own forces? I think from my experience if the soldiers themselves were given the option the vast majority would elect for their units to remain in the reduced UK and if it didn't the soldiers would migrate,
    This also feeds into the economy. Where will the new Scotland find the money to raise equip maintain and pay a new security force? And what would happen to military facilities like Faslane?

    2. Currency. What would happen if the UK government refused them the use of Stirling? They couldn't use the euro as they would not be part of the EU, and despite all the rhetoric would not become a member for the foreseeable future.

    3. Border controls if any. This shouldn't be a problem unless they start cosying up to regimes that affect the British national interests.

    4. Scottish Nationals requiring residency permits to remain in UK.

    5. Travel for people going on holiday will they still want to fly from the usual airports or will companies run more charters from Scotland and pass on the extra cost?

    6. North Sea Oil. Such as it now is the SNP claims this is entirely Scottish but they'd have a job winning that argument in court. And the companies mining it would have a say too.

    7. The EU. already mentioned but even if they do not join they will have to thrash out a separate trade deal with the EU. I think the Canada deal took 7 years. In the mean while they would not be able to trade normally with any part of Ireland. There would also be the question of the movement of goods to non-scottish ports, which then feeds into the taxing and registering of vehicles, particularly vehicles crossing into England/Ireland and whether drivers would need a green card or additional insurance to scottish domestic insurance.

    8. The Scottish underlying debt. I believe this is now in the order of £8 billion. This has arisen apparently not because of underfunding from Westminster but because of the SNP government's profligacy. So would they expect the UK to clear this or would it be a burden round their neck from day 1? Bearing in mind they would have a much shrunken economy and more to pay for despite the increased tax income.

    9. Is their health service in a fit state to serve the population, not least because of their huge drug and alcohol problems

    The list could go on and it depends largely of the feelings on the break-ep. If the UK government wanted to play hard ball it would affect every level of life in Scotland and could be done without breaking any international laws, like requiring certain vaccinations for people crossing the border, non acceptance of Scottish education certificates for work in UK. Scots not being allowed to take a job in the remaining UK if there is a person already in UK who is qualified and out of work.
    I think it would be unreasonable to assume that the UK government would allow Scotland to leave the union but still automatically enjoy all the benefits of being part of it. There must be a price to pay sooner or later.
    If you have read this far thank you. If you are now bored to tears my apologies, but I have all these questions and no answers, so I'd love to know what others think. And I'm sure some will think of things I haven't.

    Thanks for reading! I hope this won't get moved to the politics forum as it is not directl welsh politics and is just for general discussion and/or banter

    Edit: and the final question, why is it you think you've fixed all the typos and then see loads more as soon as you post!!

  2. #2

    Re: Scottish Independence

    If the whole UK voted I'm sure Scotland would stay. I can't see there's much enthusiasm for them to go amongst the majority of English people.

  3. #3

    Re: Scottish Independence

    I wonder if England would ever consider having an independence vote?
    Would save the other nations the trouble.

  4. #4

    Re: Scottish Independence

    I think the SNP over estimate thier appeal , they get plenty of votes in normal elections as for that vote representing independence is another matter .

    Yes I believe everyone should vote, as currently we've all part of a collective union.

  5. #5

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Regarding the armed forces, nothing would change other than an independent Scotland having to contribute to the defence budget. I could not imagine any circumstances under which they would be prepared or allowed to create their own defence force.

  6. #6

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    I have mulling over this and all it's implications for a while now. I don't pretend to have answers but wonder what other board members feel about certain aspects of it.

    First of all who should vote? Should it be people from any nationality who reside in Scotland or only Scots? Should Scottish people living outside the country be entitled to vote as it is their homeland?
    Or as it affects everyone in the UK should all UK citizens be allowed to vote? (Personally I think if this were the case they would probably be gone tomorrow, although it isn't my preferred option)

    But assuming the vote is for separation what do we think will be the outcome of certain problems.
    1. Armed forces: Should they be given certain part of the Army Navy and RAF or should they raise their own forces? I think from my experience if the soldiers themselves were given the option the vast majority would elect for their units to remain in the reduced UK and if it didn't the soldiers would migrate,
    This also feeds into the economy. Where will the new Scotland find the money to raise equip maintain and pay a new security force? And what would happen to military facilities like Faslane?

    2. Currency. What would happen if the UK government refused them the use of Stirling? They couldn't use the euro as they would not be part of the EU, and despite all the rhetoric would not become a member for the foreseeable future.

    3. Border controls if any. This shouldn't be a problem unless they start cosying up to regimes that affect the British national interests.

    4. Scottish Nationals requiring residency permits to remain in UK.

    5. Travel for people going on holiday will they still want to fly from the usual airports or will companies run more charters from Scotland and pass on the extra cost?

    6. North Sea Oil. Such as it now is the SNP claims this is entirely Scottish but they'd have a job winning that argument in court. And the companies mining it would have a say too.

    7. The EU. already mentioned but even if they do not join they will have to thrash out a separate trade deal with the EU. I think the Canada deal took 7 years. In the mean while they would not be able to trade normally with any part of Ireland. There would also be the question of the movement of goods to non-scottish ports, which then feeds into the taxing and registering of vehicles, particularly vehicles crossing into England/Ireland and whether drivers would need a green card or additional insurance to scottish domestic insurance.

    8. The Scottish underlying debt. I believe this is now in the order of £8 billion. This has arisen apparently not because of underfunding from Westminster but because of the SNP government's profligacy. So would they expect the UK to clear this or would it be a burden round their neck from day 1? Bearing in mind they would have a much shrunken economy and more to pay for despite the increased tax income.

    9. Is their health service in a fit state to serve the population, not least because of their huge drug and alcohol problems

    The list could go on and it depends largely of the feelings on the break-ep. If the UK government wanted to play hard ball it would affect every level of life in Scotland and could be done without breaking any international laws, like requiring certain vaccinations for people crossing the border, non acceptance of Scottish education certificates for work in UK. Scots not being allowed to take a job in the remaining UK if there is a person already in UK who is qualified and out of work.
    I think it would be unreasonable to assume that the UK government would allow Scotland to leave the union but still automatically enjoy all the benefits of being part of it. There must be a price to pay sooner or later.
    If you have read this far thank you. If you are now bored to tears my apologies, but I have all these questions and no answers, so I'd love to know what others think. And I'm sure some will think of things I haven't.

    Thanks for reading! I hope this won't get moved to the politics forum as it is not directl welsh politics and is just for general discussion and/or banter

    Edit: and the final question, why is it you think you've fixed all the typos and then see loads more as soon as you post!!
    Interesting post, good questions..I don't have any answers but why don't you mail all your questions to the SNP and let us know what they say.

  7. #7

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I think the SNP over estimate thier appeal , they get plenty of votes in normal elections as for that vote representing independence is another matter .

    Yes I believe everyone should vote, as currently we've all part of a collective union.
    If it was the norm for everyone in a country to vote for one state's independence then surely hardly any independent votes would go through.

    Do you think the whole EU should have voted in the brexit referendum? I'm sure you don't.

  8. #8

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Alex Salmond has today set up his own pro independence party which should muddy the waters. Personally, I don't see how they could survive as an independent nation without reopening the haggis mines.

  9. #9
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    If it was the norm for everyone in a country to vote for one state's independence then surely hardly any independent votes would go through.

    Do you think the whole EU should have voted in the brexit referendum? I'm sure you don't.
    Zap!

  10. #10

    Re: Scottish Independence

    On a personal level I sincerely hope that if there is to be another referendum, the result is the same as the last one.

    I have no particular affinity for the Scots but I would hate to see the break up of the Union.

    The SNP seems to attract some of the most loathsome creatures on the planet. OK slightly OTT, but I really detest Ian Blackford, Alex Salmond and Mrs Krankie herself and hope that their plans for independence go up in smoke and they disappear into oblivion.

  11. #11

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Scots living outside Scotland shouldn't have a vote unless there are exceptional circumstances. Just like I should have no vote in a Welsh referendum.

  12. #12

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Scots living outside Scotland shouldn't have a vote unless there are exceptional circumstances. Just like I should have no vote in a Welsh referendum.
    A Scottish person living in England would be massively affected by the vote. They would deserve a say.

  13. #13

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    A Scottish person living in England would be massively affected by the vote. They would deserve a say.
    How would they be massively affected? If they are that concerned they should move back to the region they want to have a say in.
    And what criteria should apply to allow such people to vote? What defines anyone as being Scottish or having spent enough time in Scotland? Should a Devonian who lived for 20 years in Scotland have a vote after returning to Devon a year ago?
    Should anyone have a say in the future of a country when they no longer live in it?
    Should Scots who live abroad have a vote?
    Should Scots who have lived for 10 years outside Scotland have a vote? Should those who may never have to endure the consequences of the vote have a say?

    I think it's simpler and more logical for only those registered as a resident in Scotland to have a vote - and consistent with our current electoral system when voting for our MPs. Those contributing to the local economy and who use the services provided by the taxes they pay should have a say - and not an exile like me.

  14. #14

    Re: Scottish Independence

    it was an idiotic decision to leave a huge trading partner on our doorstep by voting to leave Europe

    Utter madness and stupidity , much of it based on ignorance , xenophobia and bullshit from the vote leave parties

    And its going to come and bite us on the arse , big time

    And Scotland leaving the UK would be a similarly stupid and wreckless decision , with long standing implications

    As is Welsh independence

    We know that the Welsh language was almost destroyed but its stronger now

    We know that the UK economy over the years benefitted massively from Welsh coal , iron and steel and other heavy industry

    But independence is not the answer

  15. #15
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Zap!
    WWhy the zap. He's not catching me out is he? I already said I don't know the answers, I'm just trying to see what other peoples opinions are on the whole question.

  16. #16
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    it was an idiotic decision to leave a huge trading partner on our doorstep by voting to leave Europe

    Utter madness and stupidity , much of it based on ignorance , xenophobia and bullshit from the vote leave parties

    And its going to come and bite us on the arse , big time

    And Scotland leaving the UK would be a similarly stupid and wreckless decision , with long standing implications

    As is Welsh independence

    We know that the Welsh language was almost destroyed but its stronger now

    We know that the UK economy over the years benefitted massively from Welsh coal , iron and steel and other heavy industry

    But independence is not the answer
    I tend to agree with that and now Ms Sturgeon is peddling what some would say are lies and praying on the ignorance and phobia of people, such as telling them they would walk straight back into the EU. Their budget deficit alone would preclude that happening.

  17. #17

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I think the SNP over estimate thier appeal , they get plenty of votes in normal elections as for that vote representing independence is another matter .

    Yes I believe everyone should vote, as currently we've all part of a collective union.
    I believe it is a matter for the people of Scotland.

    We were a part of a collective union in Europe but only we decided whether or not to stay in it or not.

  18. #18

    Re: Scottish Independence

    I always find it difficult to comprehend those who make political arguments for independence such as SNP and Plaid, but hate Brexit, while I do understand the notion that they may dislike Westminster but not Brussels. The arguments about why self governance is good for their nation but Brexit is bad the for the UK often completely contradict each over.

  19. #19

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    I always find it difficult to comprehend those who make political arguments for independence such as SNP and Plaid, but hate Brexit, while I do understand the notion that they may dislike Westminster but not Brussels. The arguments about why self governance is good for their nation but Brexit is bad the for the UK often completely contradict each over.
    Some people just donít like Britain, Nation States and what they stand for.

  20. #20

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by chris lee View Post
    I always find it difficult to comprehend those who make political arguments for independence such as SNP and Plaid, but hate Brexit, while I do understand the notion that they may dislike Westminster but not Brussels. The arguments about why self governance is good for their nation but Brexit is bad the for the UK often completely contradict each over.
    Scottish/Welsh independence and Brexit are different things but how would you say self governance and Brexit completely contradict each other?

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