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Thread: Scottish Independence

  1. #101

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Brexit is nothing like a country becoming independent.
    There's some major similarities though.

    Each 'independence' is different. Is a Catalonia independence the same as a Scottish one? What about Yugoslavia.

    Brexit has obvious drawbacks and also massive potential upsides. Scottish independence has obvious drawbacks again some similar upside that may or may not be realised.

    To say they are entirely different is for me total rubbish. They both share the same areas of concern but with completely different outcomes and viewpoints.

  2. #102

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    There's some major similarities though.

    Each 'independence' is different. Is a Catalonia independence the same as a Scottish one? What about Yugoslavia.

    Brexit has obvious drawbacks and also massive potential upsides. Scottish independence has obvious drawbacks again some similar upside that may or may not be realised.

    To say they are entirely different is for me total rubbish. They both share the same areas of concern but with completely different outcomes and viewpoints.
    The Yugoslavian independence movements led to new countries. So would the Scottish and Catalonian ones.

    Brexit didn't. To say it's similar is for me total rubbish.

  3. #103

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    The Yugoslavian independence movements led to new countries. So would the Scottish and Catalonian ones.

    Brexit didn't. To say it's similar is for me total rubbish.
    Montenegro parting from the more dominant Serbia in the former political entity know as the 'State Union of Serbia and Montenegro' was perhaps very slightly akin to the possible Scottish scenario.
    And perhaps Kosovo ceding from Serbia as well.

  4. #104

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Hopefully I live long enough to see an independent Scotland, reunified Ireland and an independent Wales.

    F*ck and I mean F*ck the corrupt UK system with it's ludicrous first past the post, House of Lords, veneration and subsidy of the ludicrous veneration of the Royal Family.

    The past year has made me join up to YesCymru. I'd love to see people in this country have some belief in ourselves that we could make a success like other small countries.

    It's either independence for me or once I've sold house in a few months off to Ireland. I hate the way this government which will be in for a long time will make us nothing more than a county of England.

    Still. as long as we beat the English we dont care eh.....

  5. #105

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?
    It would be interesting to see how many people in England and Wales would migrate north of the border if Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU.

  6. #106

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2 View Post
    Hopefully I live long enough to see an independent Scotland, reunified Ireland and an independent Wales.

    F*ck and I mean F*ck the corrupt UK system with it's ludicrous first past the post, House of Lords, veneration and subsidy of the ludicrous veneration of the Royal Family.

    The past year has made me join up to YesCymru. I'd love to see people in this country have some belief in ourselves that we could make a success like other small countries.

    It's either independence for me or once I've sold house in a few months off to Ireland. I hate the way this government which will be in for a long time will make us nothing more than a county of England.

    Still. as long as we beat the English we dont care eh.....
    If I saw independence as a benefit i'd be all over it, but I don't see anything apart from tourism that companies would choose to reside in Wales over England for.

    I do feel Wales would be squeezed out whereas as the UK we're just about big enough.

  7. #107

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Texas is a nice shout, although I think it left Mexico and eventually joined the US. Really though, it's not easy to find examples of nations that regret independence, even if it's very difficult and daunting.

    Anguilla may be one example, as it fought to become an overseas territory of Britain after independence. Would need to read more about it though, as it seems that independence was forced upon them and not sought.
    Scotland are probably one of the only countries to vote against independence.

  8. #108

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by William Treseder View Post
    Scotland are probably one of the only countries to vote against independence.
    The majority vote YES according to this

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...o-independence

  9. #109

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    The Yugoslavian independence movements led to new countries. So would the Scottish and Catalonian ones.

    Brexit didn't. To say it's similar is for me total rubbish.
    How would Scottish independence lead to a new country? Itís already a country in itís own right?

  10. #110

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by William Treseder View Post
    How would Scottish independence lead to a new country? It’s already a country in it’s own right?

    If that's a serious question - because Scotland currently isn't a sovereign nation.

  11. #111

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    If that's a serious question - because Scotland currently isn't a sovereign nation.
    Obviously it isnít. Itís a constituent country, but still a country. You make it sound as though a mysterious new bit of land is gonna appear out of the sea, and become known as Scotland. 😀

  12. #112

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by William Treseder View Post
    Obviously it isn’t. It’s a constituent country, but still a country. You make it sound as though a mysterious new bit of land is gonna appear out of the sea, and become known as Scotland. ��
    That's ridiculously pedantic. Everyone understands what it means.

  13. #113

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Is there any country that has regretted independence? Have any joined up again?
    The Dominion of newfoundland asked London to be governed as a colony
    Anguilla seceded from St Kitts and Nevis and asked London to govern it directly
    Gibraltar and the Bahamas have both rejected independence in referenda

  14. #114

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    That's ridiculously pedantic. Everyone understands what it means.
    Ridiculously pedantic or not, you should have said independence leads to new sovereign states, not new countries. Just trying to keep you right Lardy. You can thank me another time 👍

  15. #115

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by WJ99mobile View Post
    If I saw independence as a benefit i'd be all over it, but I don't see anything apart from tourism that companies would choose to reside in Wales over England for.

    I do feel Wales would be squeezed out whereas as the UK we're just about big enough.
    While there are some examples of it not working, people tend to go where the investment and jobs are. Companies will want to go where the interest is.

    What investment is coming into Wales to create jobs and interest? There is no cap on the budget for crossrail or HS2 but it's been very easy to find reason why investment into Wales isn't financially worthwhile...except if it also benefits Bristol.

    Wales can grow up but relying on Westminster, especially one acting as it has over past 10 years, isn't it....but that doesn't necessarily mean independence.

  16. #116

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Feedback View Post
    The Orkneys and Shetlands have said that if Scotland declares independence they will declare independence from Scotland and enter into some form of a union with the UK. So the oil stays with the UK.
    And perhaps Inverness .

    They must be bonkers , they have huge subsidises from Westminster which props up their popular social programs .

    Pity they couldn't temporarily have thier funding turned off and let them trial a financial independence period.

  17. #117
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    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by Moodybluebird View Post
    Regarding the armed forces, nothing would change other than an independent Scotland having to contribute to the defence budget. I could not imagine any circumstances under which they would be prepared or allowed to create their own defence force.
    I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
    When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
    But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?

    All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
    I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.

    Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
    So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
    Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.

    I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children

  18. #118

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
    When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
    But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?

    All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
    I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.

    Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
    So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
    Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.

    I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children
    Going off at a tangent, Ireland doesn't chart its own waters. That task is still carried out by the UK government, which also owns most of the IP therein.

  19. #119

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
    When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
    But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?

    All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
    I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.

    Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
    So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
    Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.

    I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children
    I find it odd, in a way, that those of a right wing persuasion use tales of economic woe in order to keep Scotland at the UK table, yet generally right wing politics looks at ways of saving taxpayer money and surely Scotland leaving the UK would do such a thing?

    I feel that there's an element of Scotland needing to be "told of their place" to keep them in the UK. That's horrific. Scotland don't need to be told of where they stand by anyone else.

    Wales has suffered the same. We became, during Victorian times, the stereotype of what England thought we were.

  20. #120

    Re: Scottish Independence

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    I meant to comment on this before. you say what you say with the utter confidence of someone who is convinced of his own opinion. I don't mean that nastily but I cannot see what the confidence is built on.
    When southern Ireland ceded from the union it raised its own defence force so why shouldn't Scotland? I recall during the last referendum Scottish pro independence people saying they would run Faslane on a commercial business servicing and repairing the ships of any Navy that paid for their services. The British government said at the time that the could not permit any submarine to enter Faslane that may have an effect on the UK's national interests. Can you imagine Russian boomer turning up to get serviced? It would never be allowed to happen.
    But if as you say they just contribute to the overall defence costs and UK continues to protect them where will the get the money from and who will foot the bill for UK Troops in Scottish garrisons?. Will they also be part of NATO and how will they contribute to that?

    All these things just add more and more costs to the strain already on the budget and Ms Sturgeon has just pledged that if they win the election they will double family benefit. Additionally in the short term at least they will be a loss of jobs, particularly if the military in Scotland is downsized. And I don't just mean the troops but all the civilians that work in the dockyards airfields and barracks and all the small companies that supply them. And that has another knock on effect to the community businesses that those unemployed people used to spend their money in.
    I can't honestly see how they will be able to sustain and (as they aspire) increase the standards of living of the population with the burden of all the costs their independence will land them with. Loss of jobs will also decrease tax revenue decrease VAT revenue and increase the burden of unemployment benefits and the other payments that support families.

    Someone said they will get a lump from the pension pot but that is not how it works. When it was set up it was on the principle that what is collected in pay packets this week goes out to the pensioners next week, and despite the growing cost that is still the principle it is based on. They didn't start taking NI payment months before they began paying pensions in is an in-out system. The government meets the weekly shortfall from other revenue but it was never intended for that to need to happen.
    So if they leave they will have to collect from a reduced work force and find more money to sustain the level of payments.
    Also if all the pension and financial institutions feel the need to migrate to the remaining UK where the vast majority of their business is they will take a good number of their workers with them, further reducing the number paying into the government communal pot and leaving a higher percentage of non working population to care fo.

    I think people may think from this that I believe the biggest problem for them is and will be financial. And the high minded and very honourable feelings of Scottish Patriotism will feel cold in the stomach when there is no food on the table for the children
    It amazes me how many people don't understand this.

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