Scottish Independence

[lardy]

Getting independence carries no guarantees of success in Europe, neither is the collapse of the union , we could see a lot more wealth creation in England and Westminster if it didn'thave to fund Scotland, an interesting fact is 40 percent (£32billion) of state spending in Scotland is provided via Westminster, of which £25billion goes on pensions and social security.

They would have a huge shortfall some say 25 billion as they have big social spending commitments, if they ran independently and could only survive by hiking its taxes or reduce its social spending .

The emotion of independence versus the effect to Scotland , Wales and Northern Ireland is something to that needs very careful consideration ,some may hate Westminster but there's a saying better the devil you know

"we could see a lot more wealth creation in England and Westminster if it didn'thave to fund Scotland, "

They also "have to" fund Wales, so I'm baffled why you think this would be a positive for Wales.

[Divine Wright]

I've always taken some pride in the harmony that exists between the Welsh, English and Scots. What Britain has achieved in that regard gives hope for a peaceful end to all those civil wars raging around the world. It's a good model, and it has been achieved in the face of centuries of hostility. I know we sometimes have a go at each other in sports and politics, but I never felt (just to show my age) that people like Denis Law, Nobby Stiles, George Best, Jock Stein and, yes, Mick McCarthy, were ever anything other than my countrymen.

I like our union. I hope it survives.

What is good about “the model” ?

Our natural resources generated loads of money yet very little of this money has ever been reinvested within our country. Just look at the state of our former industrial areas. Despite what some people would have you think, this is not an inevitability. Check out the Mondragon model to see what can be done in former industrial areas if things are done right.

Torvil and Dean winning an olympic medal isn’t going to put food on the table and provide you with a decent education and a job afterwards (without having to emigrate ). Neither is Westminster.

[Divine Wright]

Why is Johnson, a conservative and a capitalist, so desperate not to give them another referendum if it would make such financial sense ? The emotion of maintaining the Empire ...or the Union, whatever you want to call it.

Voting independence would be emotionally gratifying but would also make political sense. If it didn’t, I wouldn’t vote for it. That’s also why I voted to remain. I’m not emotional about the EU, it’s flag or what it represents. It is just dumb not to be a part of that. .... I also think it’s not intelligent to cling onto the idea that westminster is king . There are better ways.

[lisvaneblue]

"we could see a lot more wealth creation in England and Westminster if it didn'thave to fund Scotland, "

They also "have to" fund Wales, so I'm baffled why you think this would be a positive for Wales.

England would still have to fund Scotland for many, many years should they split from the UK.

Those on pensions or state benefits would claim that these would have to continue to be funded by Westminster as this is the system that people paid into in order to secure such benefits. Investments agreed for Scotland would likely have to be honoured by Westminster.

Over time the model would change but it would be very complicated.

[LeningradCowboy]

England would still have to fund Scotland for many, many years should they split from the UK.

Those on pensions or state benefits would claim that these would have to continue to be funded by Westminster as this is the system that people paid into in order to secure such benefits. Investments agreed for Scotland would likely have to be honoured by Westminster.

Over time the model would change but it would be very complicated.

They may claim that, but they would be wrong.

[NYCBlue]

it was an idiotic decision to leave a huge trading partner on our doorstep by voting to leave Europe

Utter madness and stupidity , much of it based on ignorance , xenophobia and bullshit from the vote leave parties

And its going to come and bite us on the arse , big time

And Scotland leaving the UK would be a similarly stupid and wreckless decision , with long standing implications

As is Welsh independence

We know that the Welsh language was almost destroyed but its stronger now

We know that the UK economy over the years benefitted massively from Welsh coal , iron and steel and other heavy industry

But independence is not the answer

Being independent to join the EU is definitely the answer.

[NYCBlue]

Why is Johnson, a conservative and a capitalist, so desperate not to give them another referendum if it would make such financial sense ? The emotion of maintaining the Empire ...or the Union, whatever you want to call it.

Voting independence would be emotionally gratifying but would also make political sense. If it didn’t, I wouldn’t vote for it. That’s also why I voted to remain. I’m not emotional about the EU, it’s flag or what it represents. It is just dumb not to be a part of that. .... I also think it’s not intelligent to cling onto the idea that westminster is king . There are better ways.

[Harry Paget Flashman]

Using that logic are we to assume that you are one of the "I'd rather play Rochdale every season than have my club run by seldom-seen billionaire owner" brigade ?

Not at all. The football club is a private venture that whilst I support them it doesn't affect me every day.

If a billionaire wants to buy the club and run it as he see's fit so be it. I'll keep supporting the club until I can't be arsed.

Not quite sure how you came to that comparison.

[Moodybluebird]

Not at all. The football club is a private venture that whilst I support them it doesn't affect me every day.

If a billionaire wants to buy the club and run it as he see's fit so be it. I'll keep supporting the club until I can't be arsed.

Not quite sure how you came to that comparison.

I think the comparison is pretty obvious but if you don't that's fine.

[Harry Paget Flashman]

I think the comparison is pretty obvious but if you don't that's fine.

Then please explain it to me.

Is a seldom seen billionaire supposed to be Westminster?

Am I someone who'd cut my nose off to spite my face?

Is the billionaire (Westminster) milking the club (Wales /Scotland) for everything yet running it into the ground and not investing in its future?

Are we already playing Rochdale every week anyway but you think it's ok? Maybe without the billionaire we'd be a but further up the league.

[Barmy]

On a personal level I sincerely hope that if there is to be another referendum, the result is the same as the last one.

I have no particular affinity for the Scots but I would hate to see the break up of the Union.

The SNP seems to attract some of the most loathsome creatures on the planet. OK slightly OTT, but I really detest Ian Blackford, Alex Salmond and Mrs Krankie herself and hope that their plans for independence go up in smoke and they disappear into oblivion.

I assume you dislike these people equally, so why do you find it nessesary to make a personal insult to the female?

[Moodybluebird]

I assume you dislike these people equally, so why do you find it nessesary to make a personal insult to the female?

You're right that I dislike these people equally, which would have been obvious if youl'd have read my other post in which I refer to Blackford as an annoying whinge bag and Salmond as Mr Smug. Incidentally in the same post I refer to Sturgeon as a smart cookie, hardly an insult.

You may wish to champion female causes, which is fine but please weigh up all the facts first before having a pop at me.

[Rjk]

I think Scotland will become independent in the next 10 years. Ireland will be reunified in a similar timeframe.

even without the off shore, their economy is a similar size to Greece, Ireland or Portugal and you wouldn't say that any of those were too small to survive.
They are also markedly more left wing than the UK government, but tha majority of the tie have a right wing government foisted upon them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when it is just us and England.

[surge]

In the EU referendum we were told that than unelected politicians were a problem but now we have a House of Lords larger than the EU parliament. 85 Lords were born into the role (Senedd is 60 members) while others get awarded it for being friends or useful to government of the time.

How can that be described as a good model?

[xsnaggle]

I think Scotland will become independent in the next 10 years. Ireland will be reunified in a similar timeframe.

even without the off shore, their economy is a similar size to Greece, Ireland or Portugal and you wouldn't say that any of those were too small to survive.
They are also markedly more left wing than the UK government, but tha majority of the tie have a right wing government foisted upon them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when it is just us and England.

If you think Ireland will be united I think you're pissing in the wind. If they do it will cause a bloodbath that will make the recent troubles look like a tea party.

[Rjk]

If you think Ireland will be united I think you're pissing in the wind. If they do it will cause a bloodbath that will make the recent troubles look like a tea party.

it will be, It is only a matter of time.

the demographics have been shifting significantly over the decades.
by the early 2000s there were already almost a majority of Catholic people in Northern Ireland, just many of them were too young to vote. this is probably what was the main driver to a peaceful process being successful - there wasn't a need for violence any more, and end was in sight.
Brexit as well has given reunification a further push, some people I'd spoken to who were unionists for economic reasons without strong feelings on the other aspects, were starting to change their mind as they would have preferred to have stayed in the EU

[xsnaggle]

I understand your thinking but sadly the people of Ireland have never needed a "need" for violence against the people of Ireland. It is almost wired into them, believe me.

[Croesy Blue]

I understand your thinking but sadly the people of Ireland have never needed a "need" for violence against the people of Ireland. It is almost wired into them, believe me.

I don’t think it is like that these days not amongst the younger ones anyway.

There would probably be some issues but nothing like 20 or 30 years ago.

[jon1959]

it will be, It is only a matter of time.

the demographics have been shifting significantly over the decades.
by the early 2000s there were already almost a majority of Catholic people in Northern Ireland, just many of them were too young to vote. this is probably what was the main driver to a peaceful process being successful - there wasn't a need for violence any more, and end was in sight.
Brexit as well has given reunification a further push, some people I'd spoken to who were unionists for economic reasons without strong feelings on the other aspects, were starting to change their mind as they would have preferred to have stayed in the EU

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...inds-1.4466547

[ToTaL ITK]

Are brits coming home in droves from marbella? thought not

[William Treseder]

I think Scotland will become independent in the next 10 years. Ireland will be reunified in a similar timeframe.

even without the off shore, their economy is a similar size to Greece, Ireland or Portugal and you wouldn't say that any of those were too small to survive.
They are also markedly more left wing than the UK government, but tha majority of the tie have a right wing government foisted upon them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when it is just us and England.

As with football and cricket , we’ll be hanging on to their coat tails.

[Barmy]

You're right that I dislike these people equally, which would have been obvious if youl'd have read my other post in which I refer to Blackford as an annoying whinge bag and Salmond as Mr Smug. Incidentally in the same post I refer to Sturgeon as a smart cookie, hardly an insult.

You may wish to champion female causes, which is fine but please weigh up all the facts first before having a pop at me.

Sorry, not trying to judge you on the strength of one post. It just seems strange to use her appearance as a negative.
This seems to happen a lot more with women and must dissuade some talented people from entering politics which is a shame.

[Croesy Blue]

Are brits coming home in droves from marbella? thought not

Only the ones who didn’t fill in their paperwork

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-boris-johnson

I imagine moving there is a lot harder now too.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Only the ones who didn’t fill in their paperwork

https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-boris-johnson

I imagine moving there is a lot harder now too.

"Fellow returning expat Shaun Cromber voted Leave but said he did not believe Brexit would end his Spanish lifestyle.
He said: "Yes I voted out, but I didn’t realise it would come to this." "

[Croesy Blue]

I did find that quite funny what did he expect would come of it?!

The worst thing is he could have applied for settled status in 15 minutes and it wouldn’t have come to this.