Bitcoin update.

[Eric Cartman]

Investment goes up when more people want to buy it and down when less people want to buy it.

How is that different to buying Amazon or Google stock?

[lardy]

Investment goes up when more people want to buy it and down when less people want to buy it.

How is that different to buying Amazon or Google stock?

Same reasons I gave when I replied to you about Tesla earlier.

[Eric Cartman]

Same reasons I gave when I replied to you about Tesla earlier.

But what makes the price of those assets go up and down? You claimed earlier that it 'moves on company profits', how do you think that works for stocks that don't pay a dividend?

You can own a share of something profitable but if there is no dividend and there are more sellers than buyers where would its value trend to?

[lardy]

But what makes the price of those assets go up and down? You claimed earlier that it 'moves on company profits', how do you think that works for stocks that don't pay a dividend?

You can own a share of something profitable but if there is no dividend and there are more sellers than buyers where would its value trend to?

Company profits was one example of external factors, I also said "etc".

Amazon and Google are two massively successful companies. Has that got anything to do with their stock price rising? Of course.

I can't really tell you more than that about what makes stocks go up or down, unfortunately. If I could I'd be the richest man in the world.

[Eric Cartman]

Company profits was one example of external factors, I also said "etc".

Amazon and Google are two massively successful companies. Has that got anything to do with their stock price rising? Of course.

I can't really tell you more than that about what makes stocks go up or down, unfortunately. If I could I'd be the richest man in the world.

I don't think we are on the same page here.

If you buy Amazon stock today, assuming that they don't suddenly decide to pay a dividend what will make it worth more or less in 2 years time? Current success/size of the company is already priced in, you don't share in the profit/success of the company anyway. News has an indirect effect on price because it makes people buy/sell it (exactly the same as bitcoin - see news from China and eco concerns this week and the effect on price) but the only the direct factor influencing the price of Amazon or Google stock is the amount being bought and sold.

[OurManFlint II]

But why are people buying, selling and trading?

Imagine if you bought one bitcoin for £1,000 and you knew that it would still cost £1,000 in five years (hypothetical, ignoring inflation, etc). How much interest would there be in buying it today?

Probably very little. Most people only want it because they think it'll go up in value, and the only way that happens is if more new buyers increase demand.

That's the similarity with the Ponzi. When new buyers 'run out' the value drops as there's nothing to sustain it, which I think we're seeing now.

Like I said, I'm not shitting on it. Bitcoin will have an upward trend again.

All those things you say could well be true and happen, who knows. However, Bitcoin and Blockchain is the antithesis of a Ponzi, it literally sits on a public ledger...that is the whole point.

[OurManFlint II]

but the question remains over the value of "the thing"
If you mine up a load of gold, the price will go up or down, but you'd expect there to be a floor below which it won't go, because the gold itself has some use.

At the moment many people want bitcoin, but only because they think the price will go up. If everyone thinks the price will go down then it will go down, everyone will sell and it will become completely worthless. There is no floor.

It is relying on enough people believing they can make money out of having it to retain any value. like tinkerbell coming back to life in peter pan.
If enough people lose faith in that then its dead.

And so it may come to pass, I have no idea but it's not a Ponzi, that's all I'm arguing.

If people questioned the real banking system as ****ing hard as they do Bitcoin it would never have been invented

[Jimmy the Jock]

Just like to say , I havent got a clue when it comes to Bitcoin etc . This thread has prised my eyes open ever so slightly .
The discussions are interesting and informative.
Thanks x

[Wash DC Blue]

But bitcoin has a purpose beyond speculation. In fact its entire purpose exists beyond speculation. If the project succeeds it will eliminate money laundering and fraud. It will do away with banks. Credit card fees will be a thing of the past, as will credit cards. It is not a ponzi scheme. It might be a bubble, but that is not the same as a Ponzi scheme.

But the underlying concept is excellent. The purpose was not to create an asset that people could speculate on, it was to fix a systemic problem. And blockchain can really do that. Crypto is using the blockchain to transfer value, but blockchain is increasingly being used to transfer assets directly as well through NFTs. Getting your head around swapping fiat currency for crypto takes quite a big step; getting your head around swapping crypto for the "ownership" of (for example) an image through an NFT takes a massive leap. And honestly, I've not made it yet. I had a small part to play in the creation of some NFTs recently but it does feel like something of a lottery as to what will blow up and what will whimper. For example would someone on here be willing to pay money to "own" this board's Bale sell-on clause post? Hockey, basketball etc cards go for MILLIONS of dollars and on the face of it they are just valueless pieces of card that have no utility - is it any more ridiculous that ownership of digital versions of these things could go for huge sums too? So you could have a blockchain-based panini album in future. It rather lacks the social benefits of trading physical cards in the playground, but this time the big kid can't nick them because you can prove they are yours. A trivial example maybe, but you can quite easily see how something like this could revolutionise the music industry (again).

I'm really struggling to get my head around the many and various use cases for blockchain, and in particular the taxation of cryptos and NFTs which is where I have a professional interest. But fundamentally - the concept of blockchain is absolutely brilliant and I really hope we do manage to make use of it as a society.

Great Post!

[Feedback]

people miss the point of crypto, there is no central bank. whether it is limited or unlimited it will always have a value as funds can be shifted from one place to another outside of government control

[stan butler]

It's not too late.
Buy a fraction of a bitcoin.
Just with what you can afford to lose.

Download a bread wallet.
Buy some.
Hold it and check what it's worth each month.

Remember .......Not your keys. Not your coins.

Keep your words safe on paper and never lose them. If someone finds your words (keys) they have your Bitcoin.

It's not too late.

Any updates regarding bitcoin is it true prices have plummeted?
Good time to invest?
How do you buy?

[Rock_Flock_of_Five]

Any updates regarding bitcoin is it true prices have plummeted?
Good time to invest?
How do you buy?

It is indeed true, prices have plummeted.

There are a number of reasons that contributed to the sharp fall -

China announced a ban on all Bitcoin mining (a huge % of Bitcoin is mined there), this alone had a big impact on the price. Other factors were some major banks were refusing to send customers' money to known crypto exchanges. Added to this, Binance, the biggest crypto exchange in the world, came under scrutiny for some of its practices. Further to this, USDT, which is a stable coin that many people use to buy Bitcoin with, was also subject to allegations against it. All of this negative news came together within a short space of time.
Then you have the 'whales' ... these are large holders of a cryptocurrency (often professional traders) manipulating the market. They purposely drive down the price and hope that the likes of you and I will panic and sell off our holdings, which the whales snap up at a low price.

Unfortunately, this kind of 'bloodbath comes with the territory in the world of crypto. It will bounce back, as it always does. As an investor, you just need to hold steady and not panic sell.

If you are interested in buying while prices are relatively low, you could do what I did - send your money to 'Coinbase' and buy Bitcoin there. If the coin you want is not listed on Coinbase (they are quite limited) then send your Bitcoin/Litecoin or whatever from Coinbase to somewhere like Binance, where they have almost every crypto under the sun.

[Optimistic Nick]

It will bounce back, as it always does. As an investor, you just need to hold steady and not panic sell.

Steady on there. Not everything bounces back. Although I suspect you are probably right in the medium term, the wall of governmental pressure is going to have an impact at some point and Bitcoin is a relatively limited currency. These things do have a function and there are coins that function better than bitcoin. At some point the value will be placed in that utility and who knows? Bitcoin may find itself a long way down the pecking order. And let's be honest, a lot of these currencies won't actually survive.

[stan butler]

Steady on there. Not everything bounces back. Although I suspect you are probably right in the medium term, the wall of governmental pressure is going to have an impact at some point and Bitcoin is a relatively limited currency. These things do have a function and there are coins that function better than bitcoin. At some point the value will be placed in that utility and who knows? Bitcoin may find itself a long way down the pecking order. And let's be honest, a lot of these currencies won't actually survive.

What coins function better than bitcoin?

[stan butler]

Is it worth buying just a few hundred quids worth?

[OurManFlint II]

What coins function better than bitcoin?

None

[OurManFlint II]

Any updates regarding bitcoin is it true prices have plummeted?
Good time to invest?
How do you buy?

It's a good time to start mining!

My guess (on nothing other than my finger in the air) is it'll finish 2021 higher than it was end of 2020.

[stan butler]

It's a good time to start mining!

My guess (on nothing other than my finger in the air) is it'll finish 2021 higher than it was end of 2020.

How do you purchase bitcoin?

[OurManFlint II]

How do you purchase bitcoin?

Open a wallet first, blockchain.com for example. You'll probably have to do the KYC stuff then most let you purchase using standard debitcards or bank transfer. Alternatively you can find a BTC ATM if you have cash, feed the cash and get the bitcoin.

loads of different exchanges available to buy and send to your wallet. If you are buying a lot, it might be worth looking at a cold storage wallet, effectively a USB plug in.

[lardy]

Musk says that Tesla might accept bitcoin again soon, so no doubt it will rise in price accordingly. He's been using it as a pump and dump for a while now.

[Rock_Flock_of_Five]

No equipment required. You can usually commit your stake to the liquidity pool directly from your wallet. In the case of zilliqa, you can use zillet or moonlet.

I've yet to be involved in an NFT that is part of a Bitcoin blockchain. All of the auctions I've been involved with have been in ethereum. I'm no expert but I do work alongside experts, and when I ask why we always seem to base everything off etherium I'm told that it is much more versatile than Bitcoin which can only really be used as a secure method for transfering value. Other blockchains are, I am told, capable of doing/transferring a lot more than Bitcoin can. And the things that I am involved with (to a limited extent) in ethereum have very real utility which is why I can understand where its value comes from.

True. Bitcoin is a store of value only.

(not quite sure why it quoted stevebrickman too)

[Its been emotional]

Cardano - ada
Ripple - xrp

Two coins that should yield big profits over the next 5 to 10 years

[Wash DC Blue]

I would say, buy what you can afford to lose and treat it as a long term gamble.
Hold onto it and see what happens.

I’ve got bitcoin, etherium, chain link and xrp

[tforturton]

Long term forecast is that the price will double, but a lot depends on Ripple's SEC case, and whether or not governments decide to create their own digital currency. At the moment, they (the digital currencies) are all too unstable, and government backing would create a currency that would do the same job, but with a lot more stability. That would in effect make Bitcoin and it's like a bit redundant, though there are still people who would prefer to steer clear of taxable government currencies..

[Optimistic Nick]

Long term forecast is that the price will double, but a lot depends on Ripple's SEC case, and whether or not governments decide to create their own digital currency. At the moment, they (the digital currencies) are all too unstable, and government backing would create a currency that would do the same job, but with a lot more stability. That would in effect make Bitcoin and it's like a bit redundant, though there are still people who would prefer to steer clear of taxable government currencies..

On the tax thing: the exchanges obviously report transactions to tax authorities and in the U.K. at least it’s treated as chargeable gains. But that is if I sell it. What if I spend it? Eg if I bought a Bitcoin at $0.10 back in 2010 and go and buy a Tesla with it when it reaches $60k. Have I realised the asset? Or does it roll into the base cost of the car? If the latter, then great as I don’t think cars are subject to cgt (as everyone would be claiming capital losses if they were!)