Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

[dml1954]

People are quick to find reasons to dislike Labour (just look at this thread!) and quick to find excuses for the Tories.

Of course, what we all want is the UK to become a better place to live in for everyone no matter who is in government. Hartlepool yesterday said it was getting better and to be fair, based on what I've heard, I think it probably is for their locals even if it's only getting better after 10 years of needless Tory austerity.

10 years of Tory austerity that came about as a result of Labour almost bankrupting the Country. People are not stupid, they have longer memories that Corbyn and Starmer gave them credit for. They also realised that in spite of all the hardship caused by the austerity measures, the alternative is a Labour Government who ridiculously wanted to go on a reckless spending spree by borrowing hundreds of billions more.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Labour are not left wing. I think what you want is an even more right wing labour party, like under Blair, where Tory fiscal policy and deregulation on a scale even the Tories couldn't believe is the order of the day.

There is no Left wing alternative, because there hasn't been one for decades.The last bloke that attempted basic left wing policy was called a terrorist, ridiculed over his appearance and attacked by his own party (Twice) as well as the entire media. Labour are getting what they deserve for not evolving into a party that cares for those that need them most, workers. Instead of implementing policy that protects the most vulnerable and the hardest hit, as well as protecting services etc, they've just chased the Tories about, it's like a Benny hill sketch.

Centrist means right wing. Labour aren't offering an alternative, although it seems that the voting public are swallowing up this shit that says that we need to pander to the 'moderate' which usually means more right than left.

he's off again

Power to the people 💪

[LeningradCowboy]

Labour are not left wing. I think what you want is an even more right wing labour party, like under Blair, where Tory fiscal policy and deregulation on a scale even the Tories couldn't believe is the order of the day.

There is no Left wing alternative, because there hasn't been one for decades.The last bloke that attempted basic left wing policy was called a terrorist, ridiculed over his appearance and attacked by his own party (Twice) as well as the entire media. Labour are getting what they deserve for not evolving into a party that cares for those that need them most, workers. Instead of implementing policy that protects the most vulnerable and the hardest hit, as well as protecting services etc, they've just chased the Tories about, it's like a Benny hill sketch.

Centrist means right wing. Labour aren't offering an alternative, although it seems that the voting public are swallowing up this shit that says that we need to pander to the 'moderate' which usually means more right than left.

The left wing of the Labour party handed the Tories their biggest majority for over 30 years at the last general election.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Just like those 17,410,72 idiots who didn't know what they were doing when they voted to leave the EU.

Well the ones in Wales are clearly idiots as the UK government is now withdrawing money from Wales promised to plug the gap left by leaving Europe

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

10 years of Tory austerity that came about as a result of Labour almost bankrupting the Country. People are not stupid, they have longer memories that Corbyn and Starmer gave them credit for. They also realised that in spite of all the hardship caused by the austerity measures, the alternative is a Labour Government who ridiculously wanted to go on a reckless spending spree by borrowing hundreds of billions more.

The Labour spending plans supported by Cameron in opposition ?

[dml1954]

Labour are not left wing. I think what you want is an even more right wing labour party, like under Blair, where Tory fiscal policy and deregulation on a scale even the Tories couldn't believe is the order of the day.

There is no Left wing alternative, because there hasn't been one for decades.The last bloke that attempted basic left wing policy was called a terrorist, ridiculed over his appearance and attacked by his own party (Twice) as well as the entire media. Labour are getting what they deserve for not evolving into a party that cares for those that need them most, workers. Instead of implementing policy that protects the most vulnerable and the hardest hit, as well as protecting services etc, they've just chased the Tories about, it's like a Benny hill sketch.

Centrist means right wing. Labour aren't offering an alternative, although it seems that the voting public are swallowing up this shit that says that we need to pander to the 'moderate' which usually means more right than left.

People don't want to be taxed ‘until the pips squeak’ any more. They want to be encouraged to go out, work hard, keep more of their own money and better themselves through their own efforts. Not lie about sponging off the state as became the norm under previous Labour Governments.

[surge]

Just for the record, Tories have made noises that they're taking a massive step towards proposals set out by Corbyn and McDonnell because they were extremely popular policies and this should be evidence enough that leftwing politics isn't dead. (We haven't seen whether these are implemented properly yet and not doubt it's Labour's fault if it's not implemented well).

They've combined that with a creeping authoritarian, regressive culture which attacks opposition in any form in a way that would make Trump or Orban (Hungary) proud.

I had a conversation yesterday with a conservative voter (small c) who said they'd never vote Tory again because of what they're currently doing economically and culturally. We're not hearing that yet because i) how popular this political position is (economically centre-left, culturally right, authoritarian) and ii) Tories are still a party friendly to billionaire's.

[Tuerto]

The left wing of the Labour party handed the Tories their biggest majority for over 30 years at the last general election.

You think it's that simple? Fair enough. A question for you- you say that you hate Tories etc, what do you think you would get under a centrist party which will have obvious right wing leanings?

You're great at espousing the social aspect of your character, one that champions the most vulnerable, the needy, the destitute etc. How do you think that we've arrived at that over the past 30 years or so?

I presume that you would like to see better services, more real affordable social housing, real investment in deprived areas, better care for the plenty who are taking their own lives or sitting depressed, directly or indirectly caused through years of right wing policy, yet you promote more of the same, because you believe that basic policy which allows people to live better can never exist. Fair play sludge, like plenty of others, they've done a job on you.

[surge]

The left wing of the Labour party handed the Tories their biggest majority for over 30 years at the last general election.

It wasn't left wing, it's was far more left wing than we'd seen in the UK for several decades/perhaps ever. There is still a massive difference.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

The left wing of the Labour party handed the Tories their biggest majority for over 30 years at the last general election.

indeed

[life on mars]

Has Labour WA really benefitted me personally? I can't say that it has

Have the Tories at Westminster hindered me? I can't say that it has - helped me in my career sector massively though

The old class divide has collapsed we longer see those traditional manual workers voting in droves for Labour , Labour has moved to more of a Metropolitan City party where its safer in the areas like Manchester , Liverpool , Bristol, and London , the traditional heartlands up north and parts midlands are seeing a shift in voting to the Tories , as they don't connect or like the Metropolitan view , it doesn't make them evil , its simply a shift in the democratic voting patterns of people .

Will be interesting to how it plays out in Wales with the gains and losses and mayoral voting in England .

Cant be bothered with the enclave that is Scotland and their ruler she reminds me of Thatcher my way or no way , lol ???

[Rjk]

And there we have it in a nutshell. The reason why Labour probably is finished. A total inability to realise that left wing politics is dead and at the same time insulting anyone that might even consider voting Conservative by insinuating that they cant be normal.

Left wing politics is certainly not dead.
Just fractured
This result cannot be seen as a rejecton of left wing policies, as which of those has Starmer been pushing recently?

The main political issues I think are still Brexit and the pandemic.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

People don't want to be taxed ‘until the pips squeak’ any more. They want to be encouraged to go out, work hard, keep more of their own money and better themselves through their own efforts. Not lie about sponging off the state as became the norm under previous Labour Governments.

that sounds like thatcher

You realise the benefits system provided for more proportionally under the tories than it did under Blair and brown ?

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

You think it's that simple? Fair enough. A question for you- you say that you hate Tories etc, what do you think you would get under a centrist party which will have obvious right wing leanings?

You're great at espousing the social aspect of your character, one that champions the most vulnerable, the needy, the destitute etc. How do you think that we've arrived at that over the past 30 years or so?

I presume that you would like to see better services, more real affordable social housing, real investment in deprived areas, better care for the plenty who are taking their own lives or sitting depressed, directly or indirectly caused through years of right wing policy, yet you promote more of the same, because you believe that basic policy which allows people to live better can never exist. Fair play sludge, like plenty of others, they've done a job on you.

I think I need to nail this into your head

I want a moderate , left of centre alternative to the tories

[surge]

People don't want to be taxed ‘until the pips squeak’ any more. They want to be encouraged to go out, work hard, keep more of their own money and better themselves through their own efforts. Not lie about sponging off the state as became the norm under previous Labour Governments.

Majority of those "sponging off the state" are either pensioners or in low paid jobs. Ironically, majority of those going out to work, keeping more of their money and bettering themselves through their own efforts (i.e. the young in this unstable economy) are voting for centre-left/left parties.

[Tuerto]

I think I need to nail this into your head

I want a moderate , left of centre alternative to the tories

Where nothing changes, the poor get poorer, more homeless, more depression, more addiction, communities reliant on anti depressants, lack of real job prospects, break up of families etc.... You know the drill...All the things you care about, yet you want to implement a party that would do very little to improve these people's lives. You had better get a life times supply of blankets, soup and keep adding to the food banks, those numbers you provide on mental health are going to be useful as well if you believe that a centrist party will do anything to help the poor. Good luck mate.

[blue matt]

Labour have lived on the past for too long, many Labour voters voted for them as " my dad did " or " its what we vote around these parts ", voting day is very easy for them , Arrive, get ballot papers and look for labour, put cross in that box

a political party cannot survive like that for long

Voters actually do a little research these days, if a voter see's a party that they like the look of, they get the vote ( it could actually be the evil empire, the Tories ), the blind sheep like voter ( described above ) is on its way out

[blue matt]

10 years of Tory austerity that came about as a result of Labour almost bankrupting the Country. People are not stupid, they have longer memories that Corbyn and Starmer gave them credit for. They also realised that in spite of all the hardship caused by the austerity measures, the alternative is a Labour Government who ridiculously wanted to go on a reckless spending spree by borrowing hundreds of billions more.

it was good times though

[Rjk]

Labour have lived on the past for too long, many Labour voters voted for them as " my dad did " or " its what we vote around these parts ", voting day is very easy for them , Arrive, get ballot papers and look for labour, put cross in that box

a political party cannot survive like that for long

Voters actually do a little research these days, if a voter see's a party that they like the look of, they get the vote ( it could actually be the evil empire, the Tories ), the blind sheep like voter ( described above ) is on its way out

No I don't agree with that.
There are just as many dyed in the wool tory areas as Labour.

And I don't agree on research, especially into policies.
I know several people who expressed very strong anti Corbyn opinions at the time of the last election, but couldn't have named a single one of his policies. And when some of the policies were suggested to them they thought they sounded good - but they still didn't like Corbyn.


One person described him as a "nasty piece of work" without being able to explain why.

[jon1959]

The left wing of the Labour party handed the Tories their biggest majority for over 30 years at the last general election.

The same people who in 2017 achieved the greatest increase in vote share since 1945 - and were a few thousand votes in key seats off winning power?

The majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party (fully backed by the Tory press and the Guardian) have been at war with the majority of the membership since they had the audacity to elect Corbyn in 2015 and again in 2016 after the Chicken Coup.

Labour had popular policies in 2017, and they hadn't changed too much by 2019 - except for the incoherent position on Brexit.

Corbyn was a poor party manager (probably an impossible job given what was ranged against him) and avoided confrontation too much, but as a campaigner and inspiration to hundreds of thousands of activists he had qualities that Starmer can only dream about. Starmer has trashed his 10 election pledges, backed or abstained on Tory legislation, seen about 60,000 members resign and gagged (with suspensions) about 200 constituency parties.

The demoralisation of Labour under an ineffective and right-leaning Starmer, combined with the Vaccine Bounce, the continuing effects of Brexit (and a bit of gunboat diplomacy on the day before the election) is more than enough to see Labour hammered and the Tories seeing their corruption and incompetence ignored or even celebrated.

No surprise but totally depressing!

[the other bob wilson]

10 years of Tory austerity that came about as a result of Labour almost bankrupting the Country. People are not stupid, they have longer memories that Corbyn and Starmer gave them credit for. They also realised that in spite of all the hardship caused by the austerity measures, the alternative is a Labour Government who ridiculously wanted to go on a reckless spending spree by borrowing hundreds of billions more.

Blaming Labour solely for what happened in 2008 is just as bonkers as blaming the what's in it for me party for the origin of the pandemic. If the Labour party was responsible for 2008 in any way it was for following deregulatory policies even more enthusiastically than the Thatcher/Major Governments did - the financial crash was down to failures of capitalism and libertarianism as bankers took advantage of freedoms caused by a worldwide roll back of regulation.

Both Conservatives and Labour were united on what to do following the financial crash and I've never heard any tories saying that the y would have not brought in the policies Brown followed that caused the crash because they were were too left wing - they were right of centre policies which caused what happened in 2008.

Coming up to date, goats said I would be upset today because of what's happening so far in the elections because Labour are doing poorly. While I'd say it's disappointing because I've nearly always voted Labour in my life, the truth is that, increasingly, my politics are first and foremost anti Conservative and I haven't voted Labour with any enthusiasm in ages.

In the so called Tory landslide of 2019, there were, rounding down, 47 million people eligible to vote, 14 million, rounding up, of which voted Conservative. Therefore, out of eligible voters, more than two thirds did not vote Conservative. Of course, many of them would have been apathetic tories who were sure their party was going to win and there would have been Conservatives who would not have been able to vote for whatever reason. However, it's clearly true that far more people who had the right to vote did not feel they could vote Conservative than those who did.

With our voting system, that always happens no matter who wins, but, as has been remarked already, with the main opposition party falling into the normal left v right infighting which some in it appear to think is the main reason for its existence, I believe there are an awful lot of people like me, who long for an electable and coherent alternative to the Conservatives that has a realistic chance of winning.

The Labour party became an irrelevance in Scotland and still don't seem to have realised it yet and it's heading towards the same situation in the UK unless it realises that the real enemy are the lot who have formed the Government for almost thirty of the last forty years - if they cannot do that and prefer to continue rowing amongst themselves, then they're not worth saying.

[surge]

The Labour spending plans supported by Cameron in opposition ?

Cameron didn't only support the plans he/Tories said bankers (cause of the global crash) should get more freedom to act as they wanted. Austerity then slowed recovery and Brexit appears likely to slow recovery from pandemic as well.

Austerity also caused greater wealth divide which then also made the pandemic much, much worse.

That's not a three word, catchy slogan though so it won't cut through.

[the other bob wilson]

Labour have lived on the past for too long, many Labour voters voted for them as " my dad did " or " its what we vote around these parts ", voting day is very easy for them , Arrive, get ballot papers and look for labour, put cross in that box

a political party cannot survive like that for long

Voters actually do a little research these days, if a voter see's a party that they like the look of, they get the vote ( it could actually be the evil empire, the Tories ), the blind sheep like voter ( described above ) is on its way out

And so what does a tory voter like about that party because, certainly on here, none of them ever talk about what makes them vote the way they do?

[Rjk]

10 years of Tory austerity that came about as a result of Labour almost bankrupting the Country. People are not stupid, they have longer memories that Corbyn and Starmer gave them credit for. They also realised that in spite of all the hardship caused by the austerity measures, the alternative is a Labour Government who ridiculously wanted to go on a reckless spending spree by borrowing hundreds of billions more.

Part of Labour's problem is they never fully challenged this utterly bullshit narrative.
Labour's spending did not cause the global financial crisis.
Austerity was not required, it was what the tories wanted.
Other countries didn't pursue an extreme ideological austerity, and emerged from the global financial crisis no differently than the UK, and in some areas the austerity is thought to have delayed the economy recovering.

Because the outgoing Labour government never challenged that the tories were able to inflict horrific austerity on poor areas of the uk, and escape much of the blame for it - the blame falling on "labour spending" or immigration. Which is why we are where we are today.

[blue matt]

No I don't agree with that.
There are just as many dyed in the wool tory areas as Labour.

And I don't agree on research, especially into policies.
I know several people who expressed very strong anti Corbyn opinions at the time of the last election, but couldn't have named a single one of his policies. And when some of the policies were suggested to them they thought they sounded good - but they still didn't like Corbyn.


One person described him as a "nasty piece of work" without being able to explain why.

Thats your opinion

I stand by mine, " the Labour heartlands " have voters who will only vote Labour " cause its what we do around here " One was even on the news yesterday, a bloke in his 50's

With the Internet, it has never been easier to find a parties policies, my daughter voted for the 1st time yesterday, she ( along with a few of her friends ) actually sat down and looked at what each candidate was saying, as it happens, its Tories or Lib Dems around here.
She remembered a issue we had and the Local MP who went above and beyond to help us, so she voted for him ( good enough reason as any in a local imho )