Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

[surge]

Labour have lost the support of the traditional traditional working class man. It started with smary Blair and the self-serving smaryites, and the last death for the party knell was Sir Kier Starmer taking the knee to an out and out Marxist organisation. That one dumb move alone, probably cost Labour thousands of votes in Hartlepool. It's time the Labour luvvies left London and moved north if they want to understand what their traditional voters want, and how to get them back.

How many people describe the decision makers in the media as metropolitan elite? How can they argue that the culture these decision makers are born into affects their decision making and doesn't reflect people in Hartlepool or necessarily treat them fairly but not say minorities experience a similar thing?

There is no such thing as a traditional voter now - those traditional working class people now have more capital and security than most.

[Wash DC Blue]

There is no such thing as a traditional voter now - those traditional working class people now have more capital and security than most.

Really?
Zero Hour Contracts, Call Center workers?

[surge]

Really?
Zero Hour Contracts, Call Center workers?

True. Working class has expanded so that you can be traditionally and culturally working class but be far stronger economically (or not) than new working class people - still much in common but a "working class person's vote" can go in very different directions and can be based on very different things.

[Eric Cartman]

Labour are in that awful position where they can't win elections without lying about what they believe in. The equation is simpler for the smaller parties because they can just be who and what they want to be and retain their base. Simpler again for the Tories because as a collective they have absolutely no problem with lying.

I don't really know what labour can do but pretending this is all solved by changing leader is nonsense.

[Feedback]

Can you tell me how living in tooting in 1977 , shouting power to the people but not actually getting any power to do anything about it is going to help addiction , mental ill health etc ?

I mean having a good old meeting of the socialist workers student society round your house is a good laugh but it doesn't win you elections . Moving to the centre is not the end of civilisation as long as social policy is paramout .

Its 2021 , this country has always been to right with a small c , those of us who can't stand the conservatives have to lower our expectations and try and get what we can

Or forever be shouting from the sidelines in opposition

Electoral reform and a centre left rainbow alliance is the way to defeat the blue machine

Like it or get off the bus

you are absolutely spot on here Sludge. The UK is predominantly centre right, and hasn't had a left wing government in nearly 50 years. Some people on the left are so deluded. It is better to have a centre left in strength than a weak left wing.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

you are absolutely spot on here Sludge. The UK is predominantly centre right, and hasn't had a left wing government in nearly 50 years. Some people on the left are so deluded. It is better to have a centre left in strength than a weak left wing.

I will never vote Conservative

I will vote for an electable left of centre party that has a social policy background on issues like transport , the NHS

In Wales we have a strong Labour vote that can deliver some sort of social conscience to the modern age

So I will continue to vote for it even though it needs sharpening up

But UK wide its burnt beyond recognition

And in 20 years I can see either the tories still in power or a UK wide left of centre alternative

The opposition vote to the tories used to be propped up by Scottish and Welsh Labour, the Northern towns and inner city London

Now thats up for grabs

I can and hope Welsh Labour survives and a social alliance party brings everyone together in England who doesn't vote tory and they can team up

My opinion is if this doesn't happen the country will be forever tory

And fringe meetings and tony benn t shirts will gather dust

[life on mars]

you are absolutely spot on here Sludge. The UK is predominantly centre right, and hasn't had a left wing government in nearly 50 years. Some people on the left are so deluded. It is better to have a centre left in strength than a weak left wing.

That is a very important point look at the last eleven elections for Labour and you will only find 3 wins under the name of Blair who drove the party to the middle ground and won 3 time one a huge landslide , I know it doesn't fit nicely with some Labour voters I wonder how big the majority would have been in December with Boris v Blair clash or Boris v David Miliband .

Wales need to be careful though success yes, however Tories did gain more seats , if they apply the tactics they have up in NE England it could change

[surge]

Party in government always ends up stealing best ideas of the opposition. Economically, Boris' 2019 manifesto was closer to Ed Milliband in 2010's than it was David Cameron/George Osbourne.

Does that mean UK is centre-left just 10 years too late for Labour to win votes?

[life on mars]

Labour reshuffle today apparently according to Sky News

that went so well

[surge]

....

They've combined that with a creeping authoritarian, regressive culture which attacks opposition in any form in a way that would make Trump or Orban (Hungary) proud.

I had a conversation yesterday with a conservative voter (small c) who said they'd never vote Tory again because of what they're currently doing economically and culturally. We're not hearing that yet because i) how popular this political position is (economically centre-left, culturally right, authoritarian) and ii) Tories are still a party friendly to billionaire's.

Not sure if anyone is still reading this thread/how long it can go on for before being moved to politics section. I will quietly add that the Queen's Speech today has some people concerned based on what I've said above and leave it at that.

[Gofer Blue]

I keep on waiting to see something from people living in areas like Hartlepool which can logically explain why they are now voting in large numbers for a party which their parents and grandparents would never have trusted and I've not seen anything yet which satisfactorily explains it. However, one thing which is emerging is that people in Hartlepool, and many other towns like it, no longer feel the Labour party represents them and this is a situation which, frankly, the party should be ashamed of.

Some young voters in Hartlepool were interviewed on TV recently. As you say, they admitted that their parents/grandparents were horrified that they could even contemplate voting Conservative. The problem is that the older generation are stuck in a 1980's Maggie Thatcher time-warp (closure of the mines etc) about which young people have no direct knowledge. One also mentioned
corruption amongst local Labour councillors (heaven forbid, surely not) as a reason for turning her back on the Labour party. Maybe these young people do not seem themselves as the old traditional working class people anymore and therefore the Labour party is irrelevant to them?

[Tuerto]

Some young voters in Hartlepool were interviewed on TV recently. As you say, they admitted that their parents/grandparents were horrified that they could even contemplate voting Conservative. The problem is that the older generation are stuck in a 1980's Maggie Thatcher time-warp (closure of the mines etc) about which young people have no direct knowledge. One also mentioned
corruption amongst local Labour councillors (heaven forbid, surely not) as a reason for turning her back on the Labour party. Maybe these young people do not seem themselves as the old traditional working class people anymore and therefore the Labour party is irrelevant to them?

Good point, The Tories sold off or closed the industries and manufacturing bases that were the life blood of places like Hartlepool. Diluted workers rights and kicked services into touch. These poor youngsters don't even know what it is to be working class, even though they are. Even that has been stripped away from them, And Labour are just as responsible in my book.

[blue matt]

Good point, The Tories sold off or closed the industries and manufacturing bases that were the life blood of places like Hartlepool. Diluted workers rights and kicked services into touch. These poor youngsters don't even know what it is to be working class, even though they are. Even that has been stripped away from them, And Labour are just as responsible in my book.

the thing is, Young people do not want to be working class, they aspire to better themselves, which is exactly what the Tories tap into

[life on mars]

the thing is, Young people do not want to be working class, they aspire to better themselves, which is exactly what the Tories tap into

The real cloth capped traditional down trodden working class have gone.

The issue for me is they look at Labour and see a metropolitan woke elite party and it doesn't tick their box .

[Eric Cartman]

you are absolutely spot on here Sludge. The UK is predominantly centre right, and hasn't had a left wing government in nearly 50 years. Some people on the left are so deluded. It is better to have a centre left in strength than a weak left wing.

Or better still to introduce a political system which allows politicians to be themselves, display their values to the electorate and gain votes based on that position rather than what we have now. FPTP is so anti-democratic that it isn't even funny to watch anymore. I would take the repugnant prospect of a handful of mental BNP types included in a truly representative parliament over different shades of lying that we have now.

Starmer is getting hammered for doing what has won the Tories the last 2 elections - no policy detail, just vague statements. It's genius spin from the Tories (as usual, adopted readily by a friendly press and pushed down every orifice). Labour now have to risk pissing people off by saying what they will do.

[Eric Cartman]

the thing is, Young people do not want to be working class, they aspire to better themselves, which is exactly what the Tories tap into

Except young people overwhelmingly vote for anybody other than the Tories.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Or better still to introduce a political system which allows politicians to be themselves, display their values to the electorate and gain votes based on that position rather than what we have now. FPTP is so anti-democratic that it isn't even funny to watch anymore. I would take the repugnant prospect of a handful of mental BNP types included in a truly representative parliament over different shades of lying that we have now.

Starmer is getting hammered for doing what has won the Tories the last 2 elections - no policy detail, just vague statements. It's genius spin from the Tories (as usual, adopted readily by a friendly press and pushed down every orifice). Labour now have to risk pissing people off by saying what they will do.

Clegg hungry for power got his flimsy but better than nothing alternative vote from Cameron but the public were not interested , turnout was crap and they voted to keep fptp

The joy of government is that the people are stupid

[goats]

Except young people overwhelmingly vote for anybody other than the Tories.

And then switch by their 40’s or 50’s by the look of it

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Except young people overwhelmingly vote for anybody other than the Tories.

sad to see that less than 50 percent of 16 and 17 year olds registered to vote

How many actually voted I don't know 😕

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

And then switch by their 40’s or 50’s by the look of it

watch it

[City123]

the thing is, Young people do not want to be working class, they aspire to better themselves, which is exactly what the Tories tap into

This is only true if we're counting in their 50s as young and ignoring the people who are 18-35 who vote Labour in overwhelming numbers. In fact at the last election Labour won amongst people who were 18-24, 25-34 and 35-44. Their vote fell off a cliff among people who do remember Thatcher

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Diane Abbot was off again yesterday publicly slagging off starmer for purging the corbyn branch of Labour

Whilst I think starmer is a crap leader its her very actions that make it clear to me that this is the very reason Labour is dead in the water

Her and the rest of the far left crew just cannot help themselves , mouthing off in public and backstabbing ........the divide between left and left of centre is enormous and will never be dealt with

She's a dreadful woman , claiming to be a socialist , slagging off the public school system .......which is fair enough .......but then sending her son to one 🙄

She's the MP for an inner city , poor London area !

Then making a few quid on top as a sort of political comedy double act ......which wasn't very funny .....with tory boy micheal portillo on the Andrew Neill show

Its all cobblers

[Eric Cartman]

And then switch by their 40’s or 50’s by the look of it

That could be true, can't see why it would be but it could be.

[Dublinblue]

The real cloth capped traditional down trodden working class have gone.

The issue for me is they look at Labour and see a metropolitan woke elite party and it doesn't tick their box .

I concur. For me this Guardian article explains really well what's gone on https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...vantage-labour - many traditional labour voters are socially conservative on e.g. homosexuality, immigration, the royal family - Boris's team understand this. A good recent example is the story just before the recent elections about the new Royal Yacht - nothing concrete actually happened, it was just an announcement that the tories could get behind & which would provoke the lefties into a negative response. Leanne Wood & many others fell for it.

Just my opinion.

[the other bob wilson]

Some young voters in Hartlepool were interviewed on TV recently. As you say, they admitted that their parents/grandparents were horrified that they could even contemplate voting Conservative. The problem is that the older generation are stuck in a 1980's Maggie Thatcher time-warp (closure of the mines etc) about which young people have no direct knowledge. One also mentioned
corruption amongst local Labour councillors (heaven forbid, surely not) as a reason for turning her back on the Labour party. Maybe these young people do not seem themselves as the old traditional working class people anymore and therefore the Labour party is irrelevant to them?

As pointed out after your message, the Labour party (and a few other opposition parties) do not have too many problems when it comes to young voters, it's the baby boomer generation (who, generally speaking, have had it so easy for most of their lives and are, in so many cases, quite an entitled lot) who are the problem. These are people who lived through Thatcherism and mines closing in the areas where they live and yet so many of them are still voting tory - it's not the deserting the Labour party (I'm fast losing patience with their endless civil wars) that baffles me, it's who they're deserting them for.