Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

[tforturton]

All these people on here, ranting about how they hate the Tories, and why Labour should be doing better, all seem to be missing the point. And also, they're not asking the obvious question - why did the Conservatives win Hartlepool? Why did the majority of voters put their X in the Conservative box? Those people obviously can see something that the Labour Party leader(s) can't.

One thing they don't care about is the colour of the Downing Street wallpaper. It's totally irrelevant.
What they have seen is that after years in the political wilderness, Labour are still like a chicken with no head. They have no ideas, and no direction. No-one knows what they stand for any more. If the Guardian can see it, so can everyone else.
They've also seen the benefits of having a Tory MP or Mayor. Fair or not, your constituency will reap the benefits of voting blue.

I've said it before, but Wales has suffered from having a Labour administration under a Tory UK government. When Labour was in power, they took Wales for granted. When the Conservatives are in power, they can afford to ignore Wales, and let the Senedd take the blame. Now, if the Welsh voted in the Tories, then you'd see the money start to arrive.

[ninian opinian]

All these people on here, ranting about how they hate the Tories, and why Labour should be doing better, all seem to be missing the point. And also, they're not asking the obvious question - why did the Conservatives win Hartlepool? Why did the majority of voters put their X in the Conservative box? Those people obviously can see something that the Labour Party leader(s) can't.

One thing they don't care about is the colour of the Downing Street wallpaper. It's totally irrelevant.
What they have seen is that after years in the political wilderness, Labour are still like a chicken with no head. They have no ideas, and no direction. No-one knows what they stand for any more. If the Guardian can see it, so can everyone else.
They've also seen the benefits of having a Tory MP or Mayor. Fair or not, your constituency will reap the benefits of voting blue.

I've said it before, but Wales has suffered from having a Labour administration under a Tory UK government. When Labour was in power, they took Wales for granted. When the Conservatives are in power, they can afford to ignore Wales, and let the Senedd take the blame. Now, if the Welsh voted in the Tories, then you'd see the money start to arrive.

So basically what you’re saying is that the Tories are a bunch of bastards who will only look after those who vote for them. And there was me thinking we were all equal in the good old United Kingdom. PS it’s not wallpaper let’s call it what it is and that’s corruption.

[the other bob wilson]

All these people on here, ranting about how they hate the Tories, and why Labour should be doing better, all seem to be missing the point. And also, they're not asking the obvious question - why did the Conservatives win Hartlepool? Why did the majority of voters put their X in the Conservative box? Those people obviously can see something that the Labour Party leader(s) can't.

One thing they don't care about is the colour of the Downing Street wallpaper. It's totally irrelevant.
What they have seen is that after years in the political wilderness, Labour are still like a chicken with no head. They have no ideas, and no direction. No-one knows what they stand for any more. If the Guardian can see it, so can everyone else.
They've also seen the benefits of having a Tory MP or Mayor. Fair or not, your constituency will reap the benefits of voting blue.

I've said it before, but Wales has suffered from having a Labour administration under a Tory UK government. When Labour was in power, they took Wales for granted. When the Conservatives are in power, they can afford to ignore Wales, and let the Senedd take the blame. Now, if the Welsh voted in the Tories, then you'd see the money start to arrive.

So if the what’s in it for me party has all this money to throw about, why the ten years of austerity which they, and plenty of others it would appear, have decided to forget about?

[Elwood Blues]

So if the what’s in it for me party has all this money to throw about, why the ten years of austerity which they, and plenty of others it would appear, have decided to forget about?

AS Harold Wilson is often quoted as saying "A week is a long time in politics" BOb

10 years is a Millenium!

Politics have changed greatly since 2010 particularly in the last year. The Tory party had already started to say that we would not be returning to austerity and the pandemic has now accelerated this.

I think it is now recognised that in an age of very low interest rate increasing the National Debt is not such a problem as it was when interest rates were higher. If I remember correctly back in 2010 when the Government embarked on its austerity program (which to be fair Labour were also going to do except we now of course have no idea whether it would have been as strict or lasted as long as the Tory version) the thought was that the low interest rates would soon start to go up making too large a National Debt an expensive proposition.

Thus the plan was to decrease the annual deficit so as to make the debt growth smaller.

The perceived wisdom now is that interest rates have remained low and are likely to do so for a while so we should take advantage of them and borrow more now.

Also as Lord Finkelstein the Times columnist said the strength of the Conservative Party over the years is it ability to adapt itself to changing circumstances. Thus it sees no dichotomy in championing austerity 10 years ago and splashing the cash now.

On the hand when Labour has to change course it is far more difficult for them to do

[the other bob wilson]

AS Harold Wilson is often quoted as saying "A week is a long time in politics" BOb

10 years is a Millenium!

Politics have changed greatly since 2010 particularly in the last year. The Tory party had already started to say that we would not be returning to austerity and the pandemic has now accelerated this.

I think it is now recognised that in an age of very low interest rate increasing the National Debt is not such a problem as it was when interest rates were higher. If I remember correctly back in 2010 when the Government embarked on its austerity program (which to be fair Labour were also going to do except we now of course have no idea whether it would have been as strict or lasted as long as the Tory version) the thought was that the low interest rates would soon start to go up making too large a National Debt an expensive proposition.

Thus the plan was to decrease the annual deficit so as to make the debt growth smaller.

The perceived wisdom now is that interest rates have remained low and are likely to do so for a while so we should take advantage of them and borrow more now.

Also as Lord Finkelstein the Times columnist said the strength of the Conservative Party over the years is it ability to adapt itself to changing circumstances. Thus it sees no dichotomy in championing austerity 10 years ago and splashing the cash now.

On the hand when Labour has to change course it is far more difficult for them to do

As I said in a previous post, I haven't voted Labour with any enthusiasm in ages and my politics are far more anti Conservative now than pro Labour - when I vote for them it's much more to do with a feeling of stopping a Tory win in my constituency than any great expectation of what Labour will do.

You talk about "perceived wisdom" and columns by Tory hacks about changing to adapt itself to changing circumstances, I prefer to see a party without principles shifting their position to cling to power at all costs. That said, have they really moved on from austerity? Much of the reaction I saw to the last budget suggested not. While I accept that the pandemic has changed things enormously, we've still set for the same pay freezes and cuts in spending that we had when "we were all in it together" back in 2020. Incidentally, austerity under the Conservatives didn't begin and end in 2010 - I wasn't quite accurate when I said ten years of austerity, but it was nine and a half years of it from May 2010 to December 2019, because I refuse to accept that the May Government had ditched that policy.

Therefore, we aren't talking ten years ago, we're talking less than eighteen months ago and now we have the Chancellor talking again of the need for cuts and yet, despite the zig zagging which saw them talking about using the sort of spending policies supported by Labour and other opposition parties in the second half of the last decade, their support remains constant.

After the Senedd election results, we're seeing the old claims about people voting for anyone or anything as long as they're wearing a red rosette given an airing and yet the irony is that, so often, the people who use that analogy feel the exact same way about anyone or anything wearing a blue rosette.

[Elwood Blues]

As I said in a previous post, I haven't voted Labour with any enthusiasm in ages and my politics are far more anti Conservative now than pro Labour - when I vote for them it's much more to do with a feeling of stopping a Tory win in my constituency than any great expectation of what Labour will do.

You talk about "perceived wisdom" and columns by Tory hacks about changing to adapt itself to changing circumstances, I prefer to see a party without principles shifting their position to cling to power at all costs. That said, have they really moved on from austerity? Much of the reaction I saw to the last budget suggested not. While I accept that the pandemic has changed things enormously, we've still set for the same pay freezes and cuts in spending that we had when "we were all in it together" back in 2020. Incidentally, austerity under the Conservatives didn't begin and end in 2010 - I wasn't quite accurate when I said ten years of austerity, but it was nine and a half years of it from May 2010 to December 2019, because I refuse to accept that the May Government had ditched that policy.

Therefore, we aren't talking ten years ago, we're talking less than eighteen months ago and now we have the Chancellor talking again of the need for cuts and yet, despite the zig zagging which saw them talking about using the sort of spending policies supported by Labour and other opposition parties in the second half of the last decade, their support remains constant.

After the Senedd election results, we're seeing the old claims about people voting for anyone or anything as long as they're wearing a red rosette given an airing and yet the irony is that, so often, the people who use that analogy feel the exact same way about anyone or anything wearing a blue rosette.

A political party without principles?

Well I never did!

[the other bob wilson]

A political party without principles?

Well I never did!

As I said before, one party gets forgiven everything and the other one gets forgiven nothing - is there anything the Tory's could do that would make the vote for anything in a blue rosette crowd say "no, they've gone too far there, I'll vote for someone else"?

[A Quiet Monkfish]

AS Harold Wilson is often quoted as saying "A week is a long time in politics" BOb

10 years is a Millenium!

Politics have changed greatly since 2010 particularly in the last year. The Tory party had already started to say that we would not be returning to austerity and the pandemic has now accelerated this.

I think it is now recognised that in an age of very low interest rate increasing the National Debt is not such a problem as it was when interest rates were higher. If I remember correctly back in 2010 when the Government embarked on its austerity program (which to be fair Labour were also going to do except we now of course have no idea whether it would have been as strict or lasted as long as the Tory version) the thought was that the low interest rates would soon start to go up making too large a National Debt an expensive proposition.

Thus the plan was to decrease the annual deficit so as to make the debt growth smaller.

The perceived wisdom now is that interest rates have remained low and are likely to do so for a while so we should take advantage of them and borrow more now.

Also as Lord Finkelstein the Times columnist said the strength of the Conservative Party over the years is it ability to adapt itself to changing circumstances. Thus it sees no dichotomy in championing austerity 10 years ago and splashing the cash now.

On the hand when Labour has to change course it is far more difficult for them to do

I think reducing the National Debt has recently become something the Govt. - along with many other Govts. - isn't going to attempt. 10/12 yrs. of 'austerity' didn't reduce the Debt at all, and with it now standing at £2.2 trillion it's here to stay, much like Japan. The bigger problem is the £6.5 trillion liability for State Pensions. If you add Government-funded public sector pensions, there's another £5 trillion. Interest rates aren't going north for a long, long time.