Corbyn needs to stand down again. What the hell does he think he is doing?Originally Posted by Jordi Culé
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Corbyn needs to stand down again. What the hell does he think he is doing?
I do think the two posts before this one should be paid attention to:
I) Labour are growing in cities and the south of England
Ii) Tories must laugh at how easy it is. Most of their politicians having nothing in common with Hartlepool and yet towns like this think they speak the same language - we all know there is a lack of substance and waiting to see if anyone cares.
But this story will now dominate rest of the week. Own goal.
FFS!! Time to take a break.
Thank you , thats a very interesting article
The working class pro Labour vote that has been lost will see in time that they will be dumped and left behind once the conservatives have used them
What needs to happen now , in England at least , is the formation of an alternative mainstream party to win back those voters when they realise they have been conned
They are not going to return to Labour, its dead . Dead in Scotland and dying in England .
Its all over , its 2021 and I hope those that don't vote tory can be offered an alternative
Those of a centre left , middle ground and former Liberal voting persuasion can be united and if the Labour brand in England is dropped and a clean slate is offered that core Labour vote may join up .
Otherwise its curtains
That article, which is a good one I reckon, sets out the problems facing Labour and the clear message is that the two sides, which spend more time arguing with each other, than doing what I, poor naive soul that I am, believe they should be doing (providing a proper opposition to a Government who surely cannot believe how easy they're having it at the moment) should get their act together.
There is nothing to suggest in recent history that your new party would work or take off - that was tried a few years ago with Change UK, does it still exist?
Similarly, why does the left wing of the Labour Party believe that all of these votes which they're losing in places like Hartlepool would return if only the party returned to the Corbyn approach which was responsible for the worst defeat in God knows how long just eighteen months ago? When has Labour ever won with what I'd call a real left wing socialist agenda? 1945 maybe, but that's it.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I've been bemused as to why people in certain areas of the country have decided to vote for a party that has been in Government for eleven years and appear to be holding the party which has been in opposition for all of that time responsible for their lives not being as they'd want them to be - that makes no sense to me and, as Delbert says, blaming Labour councils for what's going wrong when they are having to work within the financial constraints imposed on them by the Conservative Government in Westminster seems barmy.
I keep on waiting to see something from people living in areas like Hartlepool which can logically explain why they are now voting in large numbers for a party which their parents and grandparents would never have trusted and I've not seen anything yet which satisfactorily explains it. However, one thing which is emerging is that people in Hartlepool, and many other towns like it, no longer feel the Labour party represents them and this is a situation which, frankly, the party should be ashamed of.
For now, we're hearing stuff from Labour about how they've lost the trust of the working class, but that looks like crocodile tears to me cried before a return to normal business (i.e. bashing the other side of the party). One comment which id register with me was that it's becoming harder to tell Labour and Tory MPs apart - for all of their talk of the working class, Jeremy Corbyn and his cohorts do not represent those who belong in it and it's becoming obvious that significant numbers of working people struggle to see a difference between them and many in the Conservative party.
Labour have got a huge task on their hands trying to unite groups within it that are no longer united in the way they once were and nothing they've done since the 2019 election suggests they're up to it, but they still represent the best chance for the tens of millions in this country (there are not tens of millions of people in this country who vote tory) who feel they cannot support the Conservatives - they are letting millions of people down at present and will continue to do so until the penny drops that the huge majority of this country are not interested in the endless arguments about who is to blame within the party - they all are for helping create a situation where and governing party can become as lazy, incompetent and arrogant in their behaviour as they like safe in the knowledge that there is no opposition out there to keep them on their game.
Some young voters in Hartlepool were interviewed on TV recently. As you say, they admitted that their parents/grandparents were horrified that they could even contemplate voting Conservative. The problem is that the older generation are stuck in a 1980's Maggie Thatcher time-warp (closure of the mines etc) about which young people have no direct knowledge. One also mentioned
corruption amongst local Labour councillors (heaven forbid, surely not) as a reason for turning her back on the Labour party. Maybe these young people do not seem themselves as the old traditional working class people anymore and therefore the Labour party is irrelevant to them?
Good point, The Tories sold off or closed the industries and manufacturing bases that were the life blood of places like Hartlepool. Diluted workers rights and kicked services into touch. These poor youngsters don't even know what it is to be working class, even though they are. Even that has been stripped away from them, And Labour are just as responsible in my book.
the thing is, Young people do not want to be working class, they aspire to better themselves, which is exactly what the Tories tap into
https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/05/lab...rmers-disaster
[extract]
Meanwhile, the pattern of Labour’s few successes last night seems relatively clear. Andy Burnham—one of those centre-left leaders who has learned the new terrain—is expected to romp home as Greater Manchester mayor. He pursued exactly the kind of combative approach to the Tories that the Left has called for since the beginning of the pandemic, and combined it with a specific pledge on progressive policy—taking buses back into public control—which promised real change in the lives of his electorate.
In Salford, meanwhile, a left-wing Labour mayor who has pursued radical policies in local government, built the first council housing in a decade, and flies the red flag over town hall on May Day seems likely to achieve a similarly impressive result. He represents an area which, like Hartlepool, is an ageing, post-industrial Labour heartland which struggled in the wake of the demise of its docks and historic engineering industry that voted strongly for Leave and ranks among the top 20 most deprived local authorities in the country out of 317. And yet, there is no Labour catastrophe in his backyard.
Even amid the ruins of these elections, there are examples we can learn from. Andy Burnham’s messaging has been disciplined but confrontational. It tapped into the widespread popular resentment which exists towards Boris Johnson and his government, despite these latest results. But more pertinently for the Left, Mayor Paul Dennett’s local government approach has delivered meaningful change in working-class people’s lives and sustained Salford’s sense of community which has been allowed to disintegrate in far too many of the places which built this party and movement over the past century.
Salford, and its equally inspiring neighbour Preston, could have been held up as models during these local elections by a Labour leadership committed to transforming society. It could have talked about living wage jobs, insourcing, social care, council housing, Community Wealth Building or any number of other initiatives which would have motivated voters to turn out and support the party. But that is not the Starmer way.
Labour reshuffle today apparently according to Sky News
Labour centre:
- Nothing that happened under Blair has contributed to Tory dominance ever since. It's all the fault of the Labour left.
Labour left:
- Nothing that happened over past 10 years has contributed to Tory dominance ever since - it's someone else's fault and we'll never accept centre ousting us as they did under Blair.
Literally everyone else:
- You can't win votes unless you both accept that you got some things wrong and some things right. Form a broad church of voters by recognising you're in the 2020's now rather than being stuck in the late 1990's/early 2000's or stuck in 2017. We thought that was the reason behind promoting Starmer to leader?
Tory party:
- This is so easy. Here's to 9 more years.
Isn't it possible that the young and new working class have just left the north of England are decades of government's centralising investment into the south of England and austerity deliberately targeting traditional northern Labour arears?Looking forward to a searing book-length exposé from a journalist from the Home Counties on how the Conservatives have left behind their heartlands…
"There is a Labour Metro Mayor for John Major's old constituency, Margaret Thatcher's old constituency has a Labour Assembly Member and David Cameron's house has a Labour county councillor"
https://twitter.com/jamesrbuk/status...62055538679811
that went so well
Labour have lost the support of the traditional traditional working class man. It started with smary Blair and the self-serving smaryites, and the last death for the party knell was Sir Kier Starmer taking the knee to an out and out Marxist organisation. That one dumb move alone, probably cost Labour thousands of votes in Hartlepool. It's time the Labour luvvies left London and moved north if they want to understand what their traditional voters want, and how to get them back.
How many people describe the decision makers in the media as metropolitan elite? How can they argue that the culture these decision makers are born into affects their decision making and doesn't reflect people in Hartlepool or necessarily treat them fairly but not say minorities experience a similar thing?
There is no such thing as a traditional voter now - those traditional working class people now have more capital and security than most.
It really is simple IMO.
Drop identity politics, show some pride in the country and keep the likes of Owen Jones and Ash Sakar at a looooong distance.
Don’t allow the likes of Lady Nugee pour scorn on the electorate and the provincial voters can return.
I think its too late and time for change
Its 2021
Its a busted flush
Maybe Blue Labour will be considered by the NEC. Zero chance of it happening, but
that’s what I would like to see.
Really?
Zero Hour Contracts, Call Center workers?
True. Working class has expanded so that you can be traditionally and culturally working class but be far stronger economically (or not) than new working class people - still much in common but a "working class person's vote" can go in very different directions and can be based on very different things.
Labour are in that awful position where they can't win elections without lying about what they believe in. The equation is simpler for the smaller parties because they can just be who and what they want to be and retain their base. Simpler again for the Tories because as a collective they have absolutely no problem with lying.
I don't really know what labour can do but pretending this is all solved by changing leader is nonsense.
I will never vote Conservative
I will vote for an electable left of centre party that has a social policy background on issues like transport , the NHS
In Wales we have a strong Labour vote that can deliver some sort of social conscience to the modern age
So I will continue to vote for it even though it needs sharpening up
But UK wide its burnt beyond recognition
And in 20 years I can see either the tories still in power or a UK wide left of centre alternative
The opposition vote to the tories used to be propped up by Scottish and Welsh Labour, the Northern towns and inner city London
Now thats up for grabs
I can and hope Welsh Labour survives and a social alliance party brings everyone together in England who doesn't vote tory and they can team up
My opinion is if this doesn't happen the country will be forever tory
And fringe meetings and tony benn t shirts will gather dust
The real cloth capped traditional down trodden working class have gone.
The issue for me is they look at Labour and see a metropolitan woke elite party and it doesn't tick their box .
I concur. For me this Guardian article explains really well what's gone on https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...vantage-labour - many traditional labour voters are socially conservative on e.g. homosexuality, immigration, the royal family - Boris's team understand this. A good recent example is the story just before the recent elections about the new Royal Yacht - nothing concrete actually happened, it was just an announcement that the tories could get behind & which would provoke the lefties into a negative response. Leanne Wood & many others fell for it.
Just my opinion.
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