Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

[A Quiet Monkfish]

I'd like to see compulsory voting and proportional representation. It's the only way, at present, we can reject the idea of party politics and start electing the best people for society and the environment. In 2012 Gerard Casey wrote, “states are criminal organizations. All states, not just the obviously totalitarian or repressive ones”. I think he has a point.

I'll start voting if there's an option 'none of the above'. Proportional representation leads to weak government, deals, parties holding others to ransom. We would still be in the EU if we had it, even though the largest vote in UK history supported leaving.

[Feedback]

I'd like to see compulsory voting and proportional representation. It's the only way, at present, we can reject the idea of party politics and start electing the best people for society and the environment. In 2012 Gerard Casey wrote, “states are criminal organizations. All states, not just the obviously totalitarian or repressive ones”. I think he has a point.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I'd like to see compulsory voting and proportional representation. It's the only way, at present, we can reject the idea of party politics and start electing the best people for society and the environment. In 2012 Gerard Casey wrote, “states are criminal organizations. All states, not just the obviously totalitarian or repressive ones”. I think he has a point.

What value is a vote by someone forced to cast one?

[Citizen's Nephew]

Politics is horrible really.

I do think that most people want what’s best for society...it’s just been ramped up to such a stage that it’s just toxic.

I’ve certainly contributed to toxicity on here, try my best not to offer a contrarian position or one that will upset someone.
But then suddenly my ire cannot be pacified, I post my opinion in a prickish way....and while I may feel good about it for a short while, I ultimately I regret it.

I think my point here is that nuances, respectful disagreements and finer points are foregone online in favour of a one size “Fitz Hall” my side against yours.

Ultimately, when things are really partisan no one wins.
We are seeing it more and more now and it’s sad.

A heart-warming post and one I can relate to. And yes, it is sad. Everything political these days is so f*ng polar. I blame global warming!

[Vindec]

I'm not against former Prime Minister's making money after they leave office. Cameron resigned when he was 50. What is he supposed to do with the rest of his life? Cameron might have chosen the wrong company to get into bed with but at that time I don't think anyone was suggesting that Greensill would go bust. What I don't get is that Starmer and Co spent the recent election banging on about the wallpaper in Number 10 at a time when there were massive issues to address such as the future of the NHS, the aftermath of the pandemic and the economic recovery. Labour went into the recent elections with no policy that stuck and the electorate in England agreed although the usual happened in Wales where virtually anyone wearing a red rosette can get elected. To this day I can't say what Labour stands for under Starmer.

[the other bob wilson]

I'm not against former Prime Minister's making money after they leave office. Cameron resigned when he was 50. What is he supposed to do with the rest of his life? Cameron might have chosen the wrong company to get into bed with but at that time I don't think anyone was suggesting that Greensill would go bust. What I don't get is that Starmer and Co spent the recent election banging on about the wallpaper in Number 10 at a time when there were massive issues to address such as the future of the NHS, the aftermath of the pandemic and the economic recovery. Labour went into the recent elections with no policy that stuck and the electorate in England agreed although the usual happened in Wales where virtually anyone wearing a red rosette can get elected. To this day I can't say what Labour stands for under Starmer.

I don’t think the issue is Cameron earning something for himself after being PM, but he had what seemed to be an immediate line through to Cabinet members denied to almost everyone else.

I think one of their beloved focus groups might have picked up on “Tory sleaze” for Labour. I thought it was a valid issue to raise (although the focus on wallpaper became counter productive it seemed to me), but I agree that there needed to be more than the one string to Labour’s bow when it came to Hartlepool. I’ve some sympathy with Starmer because it’s been awkward for him to be too critical of theGovernment over the past year, but that also means that there was an opportunity for more attention to be paid to what Labour had to offer, but, instead, there was just more infighting and picking an arch Remainer to be their candidate at Hartlepool of all places qualifies as a schoolboy error.

[Vindec]

I don’t think the issue is Cameron earning something for himself after being PM, but he had what seemed to be an immediate line through to Cabinet members denied to almost everyone else.

I think one of their beloved focus groups might have picked up on “Tory sleaze” for Labour. I thought it was a valid issue to raise (although the focus on wallpaper became counter productive it seemed to me), but I agree that there needed to be more than the one string to Labour’s bow when it came to Hartlepool. I’ve some sympathy with Starmer because it’s been awkward for him to be too critical of theGovernment over the past year, but that also means that there was an opportunity for more attention to be paid to what Labour had to offer, but, instead, there was just more infighting and picking an arch Remainer to be their candidate at Hartlepool of all places qualifies as a schoolboy error.

I agree sleaze was a valid issue to raise but the entire campaign seemed to be based on that and nothing else. I agree also Labour selected the wrong candidate for Hartlepool given his fervent remain stance. Everything seemed to be focussed on sleaze and the wallpaper in particular which the public found to be largely irrelevant given the many other things going on. I think we agree.

However, I'm still struggling to understand the policies Labour was putting forward at the Hartlepool election. Can anyone tell me?

[City123]

I agree sleaze was a valid issue to raise but the entire campaign seemed to be based on that and nothing else. I agree also Labour selected the wrong candidate for Hartlepool given his fervent remain stance. Everything seemed to be focussed on sleaze and the wallpaper in particular which the public found to be largely irrelevant given the many other things going on. I think we agree.

However, I'm still struggling to understand the policies Labour was putting forward at the Hartlepool election. Can anyone tell me?

Policies are so 2019, Labour are focusing on a revolutionary brand new model of politics that's fit for the 1990s

[Rjk]

Policies are so 2019, Labour are focusing on a revolutionary brand new model of politics that's fit for the 1990s

In the last couple of elections Labour have had a multitude of popular, well thought out policies - while all the Conservatives have offered is Brexit, Boris waving his hands around and ruffling up his hair, and not being Jeremy Corbyn.
The last election in particular was so light on policy it was ridiculous


The public have voted in droves for the latter.

[Citizen's Nephew]

I don’t think the issue is Cameron earning something for himself after being PM, but he had what seemed to be an immediate line through to Cabinet members denied to almost everyone else.

I think one of their beloved focus groups might have picked up on “Tory sleaze” for Labour. I thought it was a valid issue to raise (although the focus on wallpaper became counter productive it seemed to me), but I agree that there needed to be more than the one string to Labour’s bow when it came to Hartlepool. I’ve some sympathy with Starmer because it’s been awkward for him to be too critical of theGovernment over the past year, but that also means that there was an opportunity for more attention to be paid to what Labour had to offer, but, instead, there was just more infighting and picking an arch Remainer to be their candidate at Hartlepool of all places qualifies as a schoolboy error.

I'm really disappointed in Starmer resurrecting the spectre of Peter Mandelson as an adviser. He's like some Scooby Doo villain who just keeps coming back from the dead. Having him anywhere near will just be toxic for Starmer.

Starmer's making a lot of schoolboy errors of late including his handling of Angela Rayner. I'm less sympathetic and feel he should have been ruthless with the present government over the past year because of the pandemic and deaths-toll. It didn't stop Andy Burnham calling them out.

I've also just realised that I'm referencing both of them without their titles. Lord Mandelson advising Sir Keir Starmer in charge of the Labour Party - seems uncannily like the end of Animal Farm to me.

[xsnaggle]

We had a referendum on PR. A simple yes or no vote and the public voted against it. That's fair enough isn't it?

Or are the people who voted against it too stupid, like a lot on here say people who vote what they consider to be "the wrong way" are?

The Liberals were promised a referendum in the coalition government in return for supporting a bill. The got their referendum lost it, then threw their toys out of the pram and reneged on their promise. Is that the kind of people you would want supporting a party you voted for in a PR Government?

[the other bob wilson]

We had a referendum on PR. A simple yes or no vote and the public voted against it. That's fair enough isn't it?

Or are the people who voted against it too stupid, like a lot on here say people who vote what they consider to be "the wrong way" are?

The Liberals were promised a referendum in the coalition government in return for supporting a bill. The got their referendum lost it, then threw their toys out of the pram and reneged on their promise. Is that the kind of people you would want supporting a party you voted for in a PR Government?

What was this bill that the Lib Dems "reneged" on? The Coalition Government ran its full course of five years (four of which were after the referendum date), so I'm not sure that any split between the two parties involved was as wide as you make out.

[Feedback]

We had a referendum on PR. A simple yes or no vote and the public voted against it. That's fair enough isn't it?

Or are the people who voted against it too stupid, like a lot on here say people who vote what they consider to be "the wrong way" are?

The Liberals were promised a referendum in the coalition government in return for supporting a bill. The got their referendum lost it, then threw their toys out of the pram and reneged on their promise. Is that the kind of people you would want supporting a party you voted for in a PR Government?

the referendum was not for PR but for the alternative system, which no-one really knew how it worked therefore it did not pass. If the Tories approved the PR vote, the public would have voted for it overwhelmingly. But both Labour and the Tories would lose their chance of absolute power if that happened, as neither party polls anywhere near 50%.

[Eric Cartman]

In the last couple of elections Labour have had a multitude of popular, well thought out policies - while all the Conservatives have offered is Brexit, Boris waving his hands around and ruffling up his hair, and not being Jeremy Corbyn.
The last election in particular was so light on policy it was ridiculous


The public have voted in droves for the latter.

Nail on the head and this is why when anybody asks 'are you calling the British public stupid?', I say 'yes'.

I don't care who they vote for but the majority view not long ago was that labour have too many policies, now the majority view is labour don't have enough policies.

Similar to the 'theres no point voting, the parties are to similar' then almost immediately 'the parties are too extreme left/right and we need more centre ground politics' in the 2010s.

Almost nobody has a good reason to vote the way they do and I blame the dumbos that used to say 'pick an issue and vote on it', it's far too complex to do that. If I said I was buying a car, nobody would say just pick one single attribute and buy based on that.

[life on mars]

Nail on the head and this is why when anybody asks 'are you calling the British public stupid?', I say 'yes'.

I don't care who they vote for but the majority view not long ago was that labour have too many policies, now the majority view is labour don't have enough policies.

Similar to the 'theres no point voting, the parties are to similar' then almost immediately 'the parties are too extreme left/right and we need more centre ground politics' in the 2010s.

Almost nobody has a good reason to vote the way they do and I blame the dumbos that used to say 'pick an issue and vote on it', it's far too complex to do that. If I said I was buying a car, nobody would say just pick one single attribute and buy based on that.

If that is the case how did this trend kick in well before Boris and Brexit or Corbyn and now the two later ones have gone and Sir keir is at the helm Labour and they didn't return in hundreds of other council seats , that is so rare with a sitting government .

In Eleven general elections 3 wins ( Blair , Blair , Blair ) without the Boris ,Brexit or Corbyn effect .

I think its much deeper that what folk think , the way out in my humble view is the for the Lib's, Greens and Labour to swallow their pride and past and become one party, perhaps called a Social /Green/ Democratic Alliance Party , that might rock the Tories and win the centre ground and power


Hartelepool since 97
1997 > 26k Huge Peter Mandelson Labour win ,only 3 parties standing then Tories with 18k in second place
2004 > 12.7k Labour win
2005 > 18.2k Labour win ( Tories in 3rd place with 4k )
2010 > 16.2k Labour win ( Tories into 2nd with 10.7k)
2015 > 15.1k Labour win ( Tories back to 3rd place with 8.2k , Brexit Party 2nd with 11k )
2017 > 21.8k Labour win ( Tories back into 2nd with 14.3k)
2019 > 15.4k Labour win ( Tories 2nd with 11.8k )
2021 > 15.2k Tory Win ( Labour 2nd with 8.5k )

[Feedback]

Nail on the head and this is why when anybody asks 'are you calling the British public stupid?', I say 'yes'.

such arrogance

I don't care who they vote for but the majority view not long ago was that labour have too many policies, now the majority view is labour don't have enough policies.

could it be that previously there were too many policies and now there are too few?

Similar to the 'theres no point voting, the parties are to similar' then almost immediately 'the parties are too extreme left/right and we need more centre ground politics' in the 2010s.

the UK will always be won in the centre ground. The Tories know this, and Labour under Blair knew this. Sadly, most on the left aren't aware of this, or if they are, they prefer behaving like Citizen Smith than running the risk of getting into power.

Almost nobody has a good reason to vote the way they do and I blame the dumbos that used to say 'pick an issue and vote on it', it's far too complex to do that. If I said I was buying a car, nobody would say just pick one single attribute and buy based on that.

I'd buy a car based on the sound it made. it its a noisy V10 or V12 then I'm buying it.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Nail on the head and this is why when anybody asks 'are you calling the British public stupid?', I say 'yes'.

I don't care who they vote for but the majority view not long ago was that labour have too many policies, now the majority view is labour don't have enough policies.

Similar to the 'theres no point voting, the parties are to similar' then almost immediately 'the parties are too extreme left/right and we need more centre ground politics' in the 2010s.

Almost nobody has a good reason to vote the way they do and I blame the dumbos that used to say 'pick an issue and vote on it', it's far too complex to do that. If I said I was buying a car, nobody would say just pick one single attribute and buy based on that.

the joy of government is that the public are stupid , Adolf Hitler

And in many cases the dirty stinking fascist was right

My mother has carers in to help her

They are paid less than 10 quid an hour . Some are very good . A fair few are totally brainless . They can mess about on their mobile phones and watch reality TV and go down the gym .

But when we talked about the recent election most of them said they didn't bother voting and one three days after the election said who won ?

These people could be directly helped , or not helped as may be the case , by whoever is in charge

When everyone was doing this clap for carers thing last year some of em were saying nobody cares about us , one said to me drakeford takes too much tax from us , I am not going to bother voting , I told her it was the government in Westminster who is responsible for taxation , the Welsh government has awarded you a grant but its going to be taxed by the government in Westminster so if anything you want to be protesting about them and use your vote to say so ?

She said oh I just can't be bothered anyway

Now I know why sometimes tigers kill their young

[Hilts]

Starmer needs to wise up.

Saw an interview with Tory boy Archer on TV and he had a point with finding it unbelievable that 2 able politicians like Hilary Benn and Yvette Cooper are confined to the back benches.

We have a useless( maybe the most usless PM and front bench in history) and a pathetically weak opposition.

[life on mars]

Why are ,people dumbos , thick , gullible, stupid, kents, dull , sheep for having a different view or apply a democratic choice, its quite disparaging ?

[Feedback]

Why are ,people dumbos , thick , gullible, stupid, kents, dull , sheep for having a different view or apply a democratic choice, its quite disparaging ?

it can be a general characteristic of those on the left that they believe someone who votes differently from them is either stupid or selfish. Those on the left tend to be less tolerant of those who hold differing political opinions.

the electorate should be free to make up their own minds about what is important to them and how they wish to vote. It is a fundamental principle of a functioning democracy that we have alternative viewpoints. Democracy is something many left wingers are against, as evidenced by certain posters comments in this thread

[Eric Cartman]

If that is the case how did this trend kick in well before Boris and Brexit or Corbyn and now the two later ones have gone and Sir keir is at the helm Labour and they didn't return in hundreds of other council seats , that is so rare with a sitting government .

In Eleven general elections 3 wins ( Blair , Blair , Blair ) without the Boris ,Brexit or Corbyn effect .

I think its much deeper that what folk think , the way out in my humble view is the for the Lib's, Greens and Labour to swallow their pride and past and become one party, perhaps called a Social /Green/ Democratic Alliance Party , that might rock the Tories and win the centre ground and power


Hartelepool since 97
1997 > 26k Huge Peter Mandelson Labour win ,only 3 parties standing then Tories with 18k in second place
2004 > 12.7k Labour win
2005 > 18.2k Labour win ( Tories in 3rd place with 4k )
2010 > 16.2k Labour win ( Tories into 2nd with 10.7k)
2015 > 15.1k Labour win ( Tories back to 3rd place with 8.2k , Brexit Party 2nd with 11k )
2017 > 21.8k Labour win ( Tories back into 2nd with 14.3k)
2019 > 15.4k Labour win ( Tories 2nd with 11.8k )
2021 > 15.2k Tory Win ( Labour 2nd with 8.5k )

Labour can't agree with themselves, how are they going to agree enough with the Greens at one end and the Lib Dems at the other to align their parties into one?

[Eric Cartman]

such arrogance

could it be that previously there were too many policies and now there are too few?


the UK will always be won in the centre ground. The Tories know this, and Labour under Blair knew this. Sadly, most on the left aren't aware of this, or if they are, they prefer behaving like Citizen Smith than running the risk of getting into power.

I'd buy a car based on the sound it made. it its a noisy V10 or V12 then I'm buying it.

The centre within UK politics has moved all over the place since 97. Politics is all about momentum, small things take a grip and destroy otherwise decent campaigns (May 17, Corbyn 19). Labour are constantly fighting fires and can't control the message, policy comes a distance second to 'credibility'. The evidence of this is simple, the Tories have won multiple elections without revealing any policy detail.

[Eric Cartman]

Why are ,people dumbos , thick , gullible, stupid, kents, dull , sheep for having a different view or apply a democratic choice, its quite disparaging ?

To make myself clear (although it was already). Almost everybody is a dumbo, even the people who agree with me, even me, definitely you.

[Eric Cartman]

it can be a general characteristic of those on the left that they believe someone who votes differently from them is either stupid or selfish. Those on the left tend to be less tolerant of those who hold differing political opinions.

the electorate should be free to make up their own minds about what is important to them and how they wish to vote. It is a fundamental principle of a functioning democracy that we have alternative viewpoints. Democracy is something many left wingers are against, as evidenced by certain posters comments in this thread

You need to learn to read but I am glad we have the real lefty-hating feedy back. Pretending to be the impartial non-biased observer must have been really difficult.

Democracy is the worst form of governance, except for the other ones.

[Feedback]

You need to learn to read but I am glad we have the real lefty-hating feedy back. Pretending to be the impartial non-biased observer must have been really difficult.

Democracy is the worst form of governance, except for the other ones.

I've not said I'm impartial and I most certainly don't hate the left - alhough it can be said I dislike left and right in equal measure. Conversely, I quite admire some aspects of what the left do, just look at the Greens in Germany. Lets hope they win in the forthcoming Bundestag elections and show the UK just what a strong centre left party can do - God knows we need a a strong opposition to hold the current government to account.

The issue we have in the UK is left wing politics is full of arseholes who cannot countenance someone who disagrees with their viewpoint. you only have to read these posts to see what left wingers truly think. pah!